predestined

[Halbhh]

Halbhh,

I agree that we cannot know the mind of God. As John Owen said in one book, we are like Moses who only see the backside or hindquarters of God in Scripture in this passing life, how much more the self-awareness of God in himself? It is too vast and infinite, and beyond our capacity.

However, God has revealed to us for our comfort, encouragement, and joy that our redemption is secure, that it was finished, that it was fixed in heaven so that we won't be shaken by the trivial things in life. God will work out all things in our lives for his glory and our good (Romans 8:28), nothing is an accident and nothing is outside the control of our loving Creator. All things are being used for good, even when we don't understand it. The disciples didn't understand why the Christ had to suffer and die, but it had a purpose.

I love Romans 8:30, because salvation is a chain that cannot be broken or hindered. God planned it, God accomplished it, God applied it, and God will finish it. All glory to God!

Ok.

Let me simply encourage that as we read in the wonderful Romans chapter 8, and elsewhere, we should always strive to hear every word. To listen (to fall silent in our minds and hear). Then, in verse 28, we can notice "for those that love the Lord" that outcome.

In verse 28 it's not simply to believe, but also to love God. Romans 8 ESV

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Wait so John 3:16 and predestined work together how. Jesus is invited all who believe will be saved. Doesn't that mean anyone can repent and join Jesus? That those who were damned can change to be the ones saved? Sometimes I wonder if I try to hard and push myself to understanding something that was never there in the first place.

 

[Halbhh]

Please note. Sometimes I have a bit trouble understanding. When it's predestination vs fate in simple words what is the difference?

When I used the word 'fate' it's to make clear the difference between on the one hand an already-determined individual outcome (which cannot be altered) vs the other possibilities, such as those we get by a more simple listening to John 3:16-17, where instead of already-determined, the verse says to us: "whoever would believe". Then 'predestined' can mean the other way of reading it naturally in the passages: that we were all given (by God's plan, ahead of time, even before the foundation of the world) the chance to respond (the God-given ability of faith), if we would humbly repent and fall on Christ, on God's amazing grace, in response to Him. That response does not have to be already-determined ('fated') ahead of time. It is predestined we can respond -- we are naturally His, to begin with, by His creation of us.

But if we do respond, believe, repent, rely on Christ, then He will accomplish our salvation, if we continue to 'walk in the spirit' (Romans chapter 8), "remain in the vine" (John chapter 15), which is an easy burden: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:28-30 - New International Version

 

[Jonaitis]

Halbhh,

Not interested in debating.

 

[Halbhh]

Halbhh,

Not interested in debating.

Yes, me neither. I'm very content if you believe in Him.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

So in other words predestined is when a person makes a final to join God or reject God. Where fate is there nothing a person can do

 

[Cis.jd]

Sure, I'd love to see you argue from the Scriptures on these logical holes.

Why use scripture when I can use your posts? Isn't your arguments all based on your understanding of scripture?

 

[Pethesedzao]

but God only moves in some hearts to believe that, so its still Gods choice not ours if we will be elect or not. it's got nothing to do with us. so we dont choose to believe at all. some hearts God never moves so those hearts never had a chance... like someone said tough luck to those ones.



what if you dont have that testifying? and how do you define what is that is? can't that just be your feelings playing tricks?

what if you believe in Jesus and what He did, so rationally you give ascent to that truth, but you dont have any testifying of the Spirit to your spirit...(whatever mystical or airy fairy concept that may be referring to??) then are you elect? can you know for sure?

needs to be way more concrete for most of us.

why try and follow if there is no real assurance that you are elect or not til you die.
.

Jesus commanded His disciples to go into...whoever does not believe will be damned.

 

[Pethesedzao]

Jesus commanded His disciples to go into...whoever does not believe will be damned.

The Spirit is in the Earth now ready and willing to convict sinners of their need of salvation.

 

[Halbhh]

Wait so John 3:16 and predestined work together how. Jesus is invited all who believe will be saved. Doesn't that mean anyone can repent and join Jesus? That those who were damned can change to be the ones saved? Sometimes I wonder if I try to hard and push myself to understanding something that was never there in the first place.

Very wonderful to help is Luke chapter 15.
Luke 15 NIV

 

[Hawkins]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Yes and no. We are who we are and God knows before hand.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes but only if predestination as Calvinists teach it is true.

And how do they teach it?

 

[redleghunter]

So if we live just by faith with out doing any of that stuff, our faith is nullified?

Let's say you buy some device and it comes with batteries included.

 

[Halbhh]

Let's say you buy some device and it comes with batteries included.

Batteries, yes! John chapter 15, v1-17 -- He is the cause of us being able to bear fruit, if we keep His word, remain in the vine. He's our ultimate battery that never fails, the forever battery. Or rather, He is the Vine, we are the branches.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Wait so John 3:16 and predestined work together how. Jesus is invited all who believe will be saved. Doesn't that mean anyone can repent and join Jesus? That those who were damned can change to be the ones saved? Sometimes I wonder if I try to hard and push myself to understanding something that was never there in the first place.

For what we know in theory anyone can be saved by God, for what God knows only those He personally chose to be vessels of mercy that is predestined to salvation is Christ will be saved. However if anyone can simply repent and join Jesus, why did you choose Christ while others reject and deny Him?

 

[bling]

Well, this sounds like Deism, that there is a God out there who just watches and does not intervene in the affairs of the world.

I think Isaiah differs on that:

"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose'..." (Isaiah 46:10).

And we read in Job:

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2)

Can we thwart the plans and purposes of God?

Does God have the knowledge, power and Love to allow humans to have a very limited libertarian free will to allow humans to fulfill their objective (could that be in God's "purpose"?)
I asked this before:
Do you believe time is most likely relative (are GPS satellites have to have clocks to take into consideration times relativeness to their speed)?

What would keep time from being completely relative for God?

Could God have created time for man?

Could God be outside of time?

How would you define God being: “Outside of time’s limitations”?

If something has happened and thus became part of history, could that history be changed by God? This is not saying: God could not create a second Adam and Eve, but God could not eliminate the fact there was a previous Adam and Eve.

Could “and even would” God at the end of time know historically all what happened throughout man’s history from the beginning of time?

If God is outside of time, what would keep God from knowing simultaneously,

what was going on at the end of time and the beginning of time?

God in His communication with man sometimes speak on man’s level and understanding, like talking about the sun setting or the four corners of earth, would also suggest God being throughout time simultaneously would not have to be presented in God’s conversation with man, like the rotation of a round earth would not need to be in the conversation with man?

If God is outside of time, what would keep God’s presence at the end of time from communicating back to Himself at the beginning of time all the history of all humans?

If God is outside of time, would He know from the beginning of time all the history of every human who will ever live?

Does just knowing the history of a person’s actions, mean that those actions cannot be autonomous free will actions? (Please provide any science or logic showing they could not be free will actions, since the secular world would say they could be and do not use that as a “proof” against free will.)

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Very wonderful to help is Luke chapter 15.
Luke 15 NIV

Luke is all about looking for the lost to being them back on the right track. To being the lost back to God.

 

[Cis.jd]

Let's say you buy some device and it comes with batteries included.

Ok. So faith is the batteries to this device? I agree. So we have these batteries inside the "device" but we don't use the device, therefore the "faith/batteries" are useless. You are given these batteries so that you can use this device, and if you don't use the device then the batteries purpose is completely redundant. It is good as nothing or good as dead. I like your analogy.

I will respond with this on the same context to the topic of predestination shortly with in the day.

 

[Pethesedzao]

Very wonderful to help is Luke chapter 15.
Luke 15 NIV

The commandment to the Church was and is to preach the gospel to every creature. If someone refuses to believe the gospel then they will have to suffer for all eternity.

 

[bling]

To say that you don’t know if God knows who will or will not be saved is foolish. Do you not see how arrogant that is?

You might read my post 176.