predestined

[Jonaitis]

But God also says that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that He wants everyone to be saved. So if He feels this way, why does he still predestined others for hell?

I agree that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Predestination doesn't suggests otherwise.

I agree that his perceptive will is that all may repent and be saved, but it may not he his purpose to save all by his grace.

There is a problem and inconsistency with your post, friend. If God wants all to be saved, then wouldn't he do so according to these passages?

"Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps." - Psalm 135:6

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." - Psalm 115:3

What about the reprobate who willfully chooses their own path that leads to eternal death?

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

They willfully chose it, but God had already foreordained that they would do so. He left them to themselves.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Your arguments are no different from what Paul anticipated in Romans 9:19. Thou will say to me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? God has ordained all that comes to pass for His glory and purpose. Makes no sense only to the fallen human sinful nature in man

Not sure what the point is, are saying the mention of "God has ordained all that comes to pass for His glory and purpose." means all is predestined?

Do I understand the meaning of your post? If not please clarify.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I agree with your view of predestination

I'm sorry, Loyce, on occasion I misunderstand someones post who agrees with me, the very last thing I need to be doing. Please accept my apology.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Predestination doesn't suggests otherwise.

I agree that his perceptive will is that all may repent and be saved, but it may not he his purpose to save all by his grace.

There is a problem and inconsistency with your post, friend. If God wants all to be saved, then wouldn't he do so according to these passages?

"Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps." - Psalm 135:6

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." - Psalm 115:3

What about the reprobate who willfully chooses their own path that leads to eternal death?

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

They willfully chose it, but God had already foreordained that they would do so. He left them to themselves.

The word 'foreordained' I felt a need to try to search up, and could not find it, though many potent verses do come up with other words that are not quite that one:

13 Bible verses about Foreordained Plans

Acts 4:28 They carried out what Your hand and will had decided beforehand would happen. really caught my attention.

And then came to mind just what that is likely to mean, from Isaiah 46 ESV:

8 “Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.

12 “Listen to me, you stubborn of heart,
you who are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory.”

------------

Notice His words:

"I will accomplish"

"I will bring it to pass"

"I have purposed, and I will do it."


Isn't He saying that regardless of what men do, He will intervene and alter the situation, as needed, Himself, to bring about, accomplish, His plans, which He has already made.

His plans will be accomplished, because He has decided to accomplish them. He will bring them about, in time. He will bring it to pass. Cause it to happen, even though it would not have happened had He not intervened.

 

[Kenny'sID]

How is this a valid refutation of God predestines? It’s the same argument those who ignore eternal punishment say God is love and would never punish anyone.

I explained how in the post. That's what the post was for, to make a point and explain why it was true.

Clear apostolic teaching. Meaning it is Biblical doctrine:

It looks like you are saying apostolic teaching is biblical doctrine.

Can you please rephrase so I can be certain what you are saying. And please give me the reason for your comment in your own words, all to often one has no idea what we're supposed to get from just posting scripture with no explanation, as you may be understanding the scripture in a way I may not...thanks

 

[Halbhh]

God waits for our first move to love and obey Him before He predestines us? How does that work?

Remembering we can only have faith because God created us to begin with, gave us the ability, gave us our souls, then, possibly this way (involving the 'cooperation' as some have put it):

Acts 10 NIV (instead of only verses 4, 34-35, it's best to have the entire account)

 

[JacksBratt]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Look at it this way..... You are watching a football game. You think it is live and happening before your eyes. Meanwhile, it is a tape. The guy sitting beside you knows the outcome of every play.

During the play, each player is acting as they feel driven by the game, the playbook and the reactions of the other team. They have free will.

To you, you are watching it unfold. To the other guy.. he knows what is going to happen and who gets hurt, who gets sacked, who runs for yardage and who scores touch downs....

Does his knowing change the fact that the players had free will?

 

[Oldmantook]

Actually Paul said that. And Jesus.

So your point is? Don't Calvinists like everyone else then go on to interpret what both Paul and Jesus said and arrive at different interpretations thus accounting for variance in doctrine. That should be quite obvious.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Best to not equivocate the knowledge of the Creator with knowledge of the creature, nor assume the creature can penetrate into the mysteries of God, that he could know the mind of God in such an absolute way as to equivocate his knowledge with the knowledge of God. The thing is we do not know about others, and it is why the Gospel call is general, while the effectual call of the Spirit is particular.

P.S. I recommend not using the term "fate", the Christian doctrine of predestination, should not be confused with pagan fatalism. Were fatalism true, God would be bound by fatalism and therefore not sovereign. Fatalism has no existence, no being, no embodiment. If fatalism were true, it would be a servant a slave to the Most High God. Predestination by contrast involves a sovereign God personally and actively choosing electing individuals from the whole of mankind to be His people before the foundation of the world. So predestination is personal, where fatalism is impersonal. Well I hope you will give this more thought, I started a thread awhile back in Semper Reformanda titled; "Is Calvinism Synonymous with Fate?" which between the sources I posted does a better job of explaining than I have here. God bless.

 

[StillGods]

Whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ will be saved.

but God only moves in some hearts to believe that, so its still Gods choice not ours if we will be elect or not. it's got nothing to do with us. so we dont choose to believe at all. some hearts God never moves so those hearts never had a chance... like someone said tough luck to those ones.

In Ephesians 1 Paul is speaking of predestination and election as a comfort and joy for the audience he speaks to which were Gentile Christians. He is demonstrating the love, grace, mercy, power and awe of a God who would take condemned souls and save them. So his use of predestination and foreknowledge was not to teach we can know we are saved this side of history, but assurance that adopted sons and daughters we have such a God who loves us and is merciful. It was to put them and us in awe of God's grand design to redeem us by His will and purpose. It was a demonstration of God's Sovereignty, not to be a guessing game. God predestines yes, but we don't know who exactly.

However, if there is any personal doubt if one is child of God, Paul tells us in Romans 8:16 that the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. Probably the most concrete and sobering one sentence in the New Testament.

what if you dont have that testifying? and how do you define what is that is? can't that just be your feelings playing tricks?

what if you believe in Jesus and what He did, so rationally you give ascent to that truth, but you dont have any testifying of the Spirit to your spirit...(whatever mystical or airy fairy concept that may be referring to??) then are you elect? can you know for sure?

needs to be way more concrete for most of us.

why try and follow if there is no real assurance that you are elect or not til you die.
.

 

[Jonaitis]

Halblhh,

I would say that God has decreed what will happen, including what he will do, in creation, and that these were eternally established beforehand without any reference to the creature, but what he found pleasing in himself to do. This places his purposes outside the influence of the created order, but only in himself. I view God's will to be one with himself: immutable, simple, and eternal. He is not made up of parts, or pieces. His essence cannot be divided or added to or diminished. So, whatever he willed to happen must have been eternal and unchanging with himself (ad intra). Redemptive history is the realization of what was already purposed to happen.

I cannot agree that God is at any time at all affected, influenced, or taught by anything in creation. Otherwise, he would be mutable. How certain events occurred and how God responded was eternally decreed in his eternal counsel beforehand to occur the way they did, and this includes his intervention in our personal salvation or rejection to the gospel call.

 

[Halbhh]

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 5:5-6, James 4:6-7 - New King James Version

If God already knows the outcome for an individual soul, why would He 'resist' the proud?

If that soul is already individually predestined (*), then no resistance nor help is (unconditionally) needed.

Instead of already known, the outcome is yet to be brought about, at least.

---------
* -- Instead of individually fated, we are all ("whosoever") given already from birth a way, a chance to turn and repent. That's predestined.

 

[Halbhh]

Halblhh,

I would say that God has decreed what will happen, including what he will do, in creation, and that these were eternally established beforehand without any reference to the creature, but what he found pleasing in himself to do. This places his purposes outside the influence of the created order, but only in himself. I view God's will to be one with himself: immutable, simple, and eternal. He is not made up of parts, or pieces. His essence cannot be divided or added to or diminished. So, whatever he willed to happen must have been eternal and unchanging with himself (ad intra). Redemptive history is the realization of what was already purposed to happen.

I cannot agree that God is at any time at all affected, influenced, or taught by anything in creation. Otherwise, he would be mutable. How certain events occurred and how God responded was eternally decreed in his eternal counsel beforehand to occur the way they did, and this includes his intervention in our personal salvation or rejection to the gospel call.

Ok. To me, I am not able to have the....already-knowing to know whether or not God has already decided for every individual (as distinct from certain individuals He choses ahead for a purpose) ahead of time.

That's instead "mystery" (see post #127 on previous page).

And it's even entirely beyond our knowing I think, in that we cannot know all of the mind of God, but only revealed things (alone):

Isaiah 55 NIV (instead of only the key verses 6-10, it's best of all to read this passage from verse 1 fully through (short chapter), because it's exactly about salvation itself even). His thoughts are not simply different, but so much higher that we cannot encompass (omnisciently know) all of His thoughts.

 

[Oldmantook]

Can you quote me some sources on how you came up with this?


Now you are getting it. That is in fact Biblical doctrine. But does not preclude human choices.

Even on standardized tests you get limited options to choose.

Do you really understand Reformed doctrine? My theology professor in seminary taught from the Reformed view that does not base God's election on any foreknowledge of our decision. Election is based upon God's sovereignty alone. He chooses whom to elect and whom is passed over. Although I'm not a fan of this website, it gives a succinct and balanced explanation:
Who are the elect of God?

 

[Oldmantook]

Can you argue this from Scriptures?

Just reference the link in my previous post.

 

[KyleSpringer]

So if we live just by faith with out doing any of that stuff, our faith is nullified?

It’s not “live just by faith,” but rather “the just live BY faith.” If you have faith, and you live by it, you are subsequently doing something.

You are acknowledging a greater purpose than yourself and you’re focusing on pursuing after it, and you will inevitably effect the people around you.

The issue is not that you HAVE to do anything, bc Christ has won the victory, but inherently, faith in Jesus opens a new world of opportunity and responsibility, and following Him puts you on the front line of some of the Lords greatest works in our day.


““Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What do you think it means to rule and reign with Him for a thousand years? It means you’ll be doing stuff for the Kingdom, and to the extent that your faith is so excercised here on earth, so will the Lord multiply you in His Kingdom. The Lord is really into multiplying, so the position you have during His reign will correlate directly to the works you perform by faith, today.

 

[Jonaitis]

Halbhh,

I agree that we cannot know the mind of God. As John Owen said in one book, we are like Moses who only see the backside or hindquarters of God in Scripture in this passing life, how much more the self-awareness of God in himself? It is too vast and infinite, and beyond our capacity.

However, God has revealed to us for our comfort, encouragement, and joy that our redemption is secure, that it was finished, that it was fixed in heaven so that we won't be shaken by the trivial things in life. God will work out all things in our lives for his glory and our good (Romans 8:28), nothing is an accident and nothing is outside the control of our loving Creator. All things are being used for good, even when we don't understand it. The disciples didn't understand why the Christ had to suffer and die, but it had a purpose.

I love Romans 8:30, because salvation is a chain that cannot be broken or hindered. God planned it, God accomplished it, God applied it, and God will finish it. All glory to God!

 

[Kenny'sID]

To call a biblical truth ridiculous is the language of unbelief
There is clear teaching of this truth that you need to deal with.
You cannot take out a black ink sharpie and cross the teaching out of your Bible.

Please, if you have an accusation explain what it is.

For instance, What "biblical truth" did I refer to as ridiculous, and why is it ridiculous.

What is that "clear teaching" I need to deal with, and why?

What teaching am I crossing out of the bible?

I have nothing solid to reply to there, and the post serves no real purpose.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Actually, I don't think anybody does believe that, but you're more than welcome to argue against a nonexistent position.

Define predestined, and we'll go from there.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Best to not equivocate the knowledge of the Creator with knowledge of the creature, nor assume the creature can penetrate into the mysteries of God, that he could know the mind of God in such an absolute way as to equivocate his knowledge with the knowledge of God. The thing is we do not know about others, and it is why the Gospel call is general, while the effectual call of the Spirit is particular.

P.S. I recommend not using the term "fate", the Christian doctrine of predestination, should not be confused with pagan fatalism. Were fatalism true, God would be bound by fatalism and therefore not sovereign. Fatalism has no existence, no being, no embodiment. If fatalism were true, it would be a servant a slave to the Most High God. Predestination by contrast involves a sovereign God personally and actively choosing electing individuals from the whole of mankind to be His people before the foundation of the world. So predestination is personal, where fatalism is impersonal. Well I hope you will give this more thought, I started a thread awhile back in Semper Reformanda titled; "Is Calvinism Synonymous with Fate?" which between the sources I posted does a better job of explaining than I have here. God bless.

Please note. Sometimes I have a bit trouble understanding. When it's predestination vs fate in simple words what is the difference?