How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[redleghunter]

Scripture is simple.
Our parent is hasatan to start with, as shown by Scripture already posted.
This is true of everyone on earth.
We all were once subject to the prince of the power of the air , the devil,
same as everyone else on earth. (those who still are are called the sons of disobedience in the Scripture posted and elsewhere)

You lay out the Scriptural dichotomy quite well. We are either a child of God or a child of wrath. In our child of wrath state there is none righteous, no not one.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You lay out the Scriptural dichotomy quite well. We are either a child of God or a child of wrath. In our child of wrath state there is none righteous, no not one.

Not I, and not as if humble either, nor proud. Simply Scripture -
we all once were children of wrath.

Only by grace is anyone no longer doomed. All of us here and on earth everywhere included, we all were once doomed, without hope in the world (still no hope "in the world" from the world.... ) , until ...... 'the secret' !

 

[redleghunter]

I agree with the below. Yet you give "optimistic" ratings. Quite puzzling.

Not I, and not as if humble either, nor proud. Simply Scripture -

Only by grace is anyone no longer doomed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree with the below. Yet you give "optimistic" ratings. Quite puzzling.

Just like there are no ratings to expose the many anti-christs among us, disclosed by Scripture,
the "optimistic" rating might be - 'hopeful for the best for the poster'

OR 'looks like the poster is optimistic'

OR 'hopeful / optimistic the poster will repent'

OR ' 'optimistic' that the poster is moving the right direction trusting God'

OR 'optimistic I do not see things right because the content is so wrong'

OR 'optimistic the content is right because I can't see if it is or not'

OR 'acknowledging the positive content or goal or direction of the poster or the readers'

OR ' "optimistic" because it seems like the best 'fit' of the labels available'

OR 'without knowing anything, just optimistic click to let the poster know the post is welcome and/or appreciated'

OR ?

 

[fhansen]

As stated earlier this view evokes all sorts of questions of fairness and justice according to the model set by others opposed to effectual call. In effect, there is little difference logically.

I think there's actually an enormous difference. With the effectual call God determines, for some, that His offer is accepted, The will is controlled, not free..

And where earlier in the OP you contrast the evil or sin of man with the love and mercy of God this is only good news for those who have not been predestined to eternal torment through no choice of their own.

 

[Hammster]

I think there's actually an enormous difference. With the effectual call God determines, for some, that His offer is accepted, The will is controlled, not free..

That’s incorrect. The effectual call is the means God uses for regeneration. Faith comes by hearing. It’s not potential faith, but actual faith. So when we are born again, we are more free than ever, and will freely chose Christ.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

From Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2: ESV

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Jesus in John 8 confronts unbelievers and tells them their father is the devil:

John 8: ESV

43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

"son of" is a Hebrew idiom for "people of". Nothing to do with a parent.
"father" in this case should not be taken literally. God is our Father. In this example the father of the wicked dwell in his house and not in the house of the almighty. Still, nothing to do with a parent but a rejection of the true Father.

 

[redleghunter]

I think there's actually an enormous difference. With the effectual call God determines, for some, that His offer is accepted, The will is controlled, not free..

The will is not controlled. In fact the will can only be free if given a new heart, eyes that see, and ears that hear.

Now I think based on the above you could argue a prevenient grace which accomplishes this for all, but then again we are back to the same issue...Why do some accept and some refuse? And for those who refuse why wasn't this Divine gift of a new heart, eyes that see, ears that hear effectual for all?

I'm not poking you to answer that, but point out that such is left with the same 'problem' for those who want to rationalize a Merciful and Loving and Just God would not do "X" as if we know the Mind of God.

And where earlier in the OP you contrast the evil or sin of man with the love and mercy of God this is only good news for those who have not been predestined to eternal torment through no choice of their own.

No it's Good News for all those who believe in the Only begotten Son of God.

 

[redleghunter]

"son of" is a Hebrew idiom for "people of". Nothing to do with a parent.
"father" in this case should not be taken literally. God is our Father. In this example the father of the wicked dwell in his house and not in the house of the almighty. Still, nothing to do with a parent but a rejection of the true Father.

"You are of your father the devil." I think that is quite clear.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Our parent is hasatan to start with, as shown by Scripture already posted.

I do not find this a true statement. There were many found "in faith" since the beginning of time. If all have Satan as a parent then many who walked with God in the OT were as well. Secondly, God Himself describes the human condition: “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” God does not say we are the children of Satan rather we are weak in the flesh and fall into deception through Satan and then sin.

Just to name a few who knew the Father and were not the child of Satan:
Enoch
Job
Noah
Abraham
Joseph
Moses
Joshua
Aaron
Jacob
David
Esther
etc....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"You are of your father the devil." I think that is quite clear.

Doesn't that fit well, in harmony with all Scripture and ,
"There ARE many ANTI-CHRISTS in the assembly, among us" also ?

 

[redleghunter]

Doesn't that fit well, in harmony with all Scripture and ,
"There ARE many ANTI-CHRISTS in the assembly, among us" also ?

I agree the Scriptures are clear we are all damned, destitute condemned sinners until God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Scripture is simple.
Our parent is hasatan to start with, as shown by Scripture already posted.
This is true of everyone on earth.
We all were once subject to the prince of the power of the air , the devil,
same as everyone else on earth. (those who still are are called the sons of disobedience in the Scripture posted and elsewhere)

This is totally true, in line with all Scripture.

PAUL WA SNO TEXagerating .... Paul spoke as Yeshua taught him to, and delivered the Father's message accurately.

I do not find this a true statement. There were many found "in faith" since the beginning of time. If all have Satan as a parent then many who walked with God in the OT were as well. Secondly, God Himself describes the human condition: “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” God does not say we are the children of Satan rather we are weak in the flesh and fall into deception through Satan and then sin.

Just to name a few who knew the Father and were not the child of Satan:
Enoch
Job
Noah
Abraham
Joseph
Moses
Joshua
Aaron
Jacob
David
Esther
etc....

 

[Maria Billingsley]

"You are of your father the devil." I think that is quite clear.

In context, it is pointed directly to those who reject the Father and His Son and not as a starting point for all humanity as Satan's children as a whole.
Blessings

 

[redleghunter]

"There ARE many ANTI-CHRISTS in the assembly, among us" also ?

The Scriptures are clear on that as well:

Matthew 13: ESV
24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weedsc among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

all humanity

< shrugs > "all humanity" is doomed.

See throughout Scripture, Genesis to Malachi, Psalms, NT, and Revelation.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

< shrugs > "all humanity" is doomed.

See throughout Scripture, Genesis to Malachi, Psalms, NT, and Revelation.

Ok, if you take your belief to its logical conclusion, you are then saying.....as an extreme example....that all babies aborted before birth are children of Satan and dwell with him having no chance to be with God the Father. Think about it. Not a plausible theology.
Blessings

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ok, if you take your belief to its logical conclusion, you are then saying.....as an extreme example....that all babies aborted before birth are children of Satan and dwell with him having no chance to be with God the Father. Think about it. Not a plausible theology.
Blessings

That has been debated for thousands of years, and so far God has not said.

 

[redleghunter]

In context, it is pointed directly to those who reject the Father and His Son and not as a starting point for all humanity as Satan's children as a whole.
Blessings

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[yashualover]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!