How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[redleghunter]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

Right.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

Not just "they", but also everyone of "us" here also.

 

[redleghunter]

Not just "they", but also everyone of "us" here also.

Yes good catch I was using the voice of the text. I thought the part which says “like all mankind” was clear enough. Maybe not I guess.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes good catch I was using the voice of the text. I thought the part which says “like all mankind” was clear enough. Maybe not I guess.

It may have been fine, just 'clarity' here is cool. Thanks !

How can anyone make themselves be born of a woman ?

Silly question, right ? No, just to make a point ---

so also , NO ONE, can make themselves "born again".

 

[redleghunter]

It may have been fine, just 'clarity' here is cool. Thanks !

How can anyone make themselves be born of a woman ?

Silly question, right ? No, just to make a point ---

so also , NO ONE, can make themselves "born again".

So your view is obviously something supernatural happens for one to be conscious spiritually of their damned and destitute state in need of Christ as Savior and Lord?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So your view is obviously something supernatural happens for one to be conscious spiritually of their damned and destitute state in need of Christ as Savior and Lord?

After I posted that, in my mind or spirit, I realized without knowing yet if it changes what I posted,
what is written in 1st John. "...... He (God) gave the power to become sons of God..... " I think --- I really am tired... so will re-visit tomorrow , God willing.
Thanks to our Father in heaven for His good workmanship (poems!) here (we are called His poems in Hebrew or Greek, someone said) ....
as we continue in the battle of our lives ! (against spiritual forces in high places, and temptations everywhere ) ....
good night!

 

[Serving Zion]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

It all comes down to Romans 6:16 and John 15:3. Their thinking is under the spirit of the world (the children of wrath) - the same spirit that operates in the children of disobedience. Romans 6:16 says that we are slaves of the one we obey - so the ones who are obeying sin are slaves to sin - that is, that they are of the state in John 8:35 that The Son has not yet made free (John 8:36).

Jesus says it is His Word that makes us clean, by bringing our mind to a knowledge of the truth that has set our thinking right - the "breath of life", the "living water that wells up and overflows as a fountain of life" etc. That is what we are called to be, as vessels of The Holy Spirit. When we are speaking words of life, they are useful for cleansing the thinking of those whom we speak to, and if that seed falls on fertile soil then it may grow to produce 30, 60 or 100 times what was sown (1 Corinthians 3:6-7, Matthew 13:8).

"So, just as you hear the wind and you see it in the trees, but you don't know where it came from or whence it goes .. so it is with those born of the spirit".

 

[Serving Zion]

I guess the takeaway point of that, is that God teaches us through the words that His spirit touches us with, day by day, and there comes a time when our awareness of the sin that enslaves us gives us a new understanding that we may recognise that we have been wrong, so we begin to think and do right instead of wrong - that way being "set free" by repentance and no longer enslaved by the sin.

"Amen, amen I tell you, whoever hears My word and trusts the One who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed over from death into life"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 1:11-13 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

11 He came to his own homeland,
yet his own people did not receive him.


12 But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.


Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
===================================
BRG
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
CSB
who were born, not of natural descent, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.
CEB
born not from blood nor from human desire or passion, but born from God.
CJB
not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.
CEV
They were not God’s children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children.

 

[Tree of Life]

Unless God regenerates a dead sinner's heart they cannot respond to God's call to repentance and faith. As Jesus said: "Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God."

This is why the Reformers taught that regeneration (being born again) precedes conversion (our repentance and faith). Regeneration is the work of God while conversion is our response. God's work comes first.

Wesley (in his Arminian convictions) correctly perceived that this implied a Calvinistic soteriology which he did not accept. He therefore taught the doctrine of prevenient grace - that God's prevenient grace awakens a sinner's heart enough for them to be able to choose God, but that this grace is resistible. If you reject the Augustinian (Calvinistic) view, then you must accept Wesley's view of prevenient grace or else be a Pelagian.

 

[Serving Zion]

John 1:11-13 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

11 He came to his own homeland,
yet his own people did not receive him.


12 But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.


Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
===================================
BRG
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
CSB
who were born, not of natural descent, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.
CEB
born not from blood nor from human desire or passion, but born from God.
CJB
not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.
CEV
They were not God’s children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children.

That's an interesting translation! .. I have not noticed that it is so elaborate, and I will check it more often. Thanks for that!

.. also, I would like to add that I have understood the meaning of John 1:13 "blood", "will of flesh", and "will of man" as being three distinct ways that a person can become an insincere, or invalid, believer:

1. "I was born into it" (bloodline) - does not necessarily produce a faith with godly fruits.
2. "I don't want to go to hell, I want to go to heaven" - ditto: does not (in most likelihood) produce a faith with godly fruits.
3. "Non-Christians are driven out of this town" - probably the worst of all, is when a person is forced to take on a religion by some man-made coercion (such as some of the darker times in history). All it does is produce resentment, the wrong spirit, and when that gets into high places then much harm comes about.

What an interesting expression to use! "his faith is a result of human impulse" .. hmmm

 

[redleghunter]

It all comes down to Romans 6:16 and John 15:3. Their thinking is under the spirit of the world (the children of wrath) - the same spirit that operates in the children of disobedience. Romans 6:16 says that we are slaves of the one we obey - so the ones who are obeying sin are slaves to sin - that is, that they are of the state in John 8:35 that The Son has not yet made free (John 8:36).

Jesus says it is His Word that makes us clean, by bringing our mind to a knowledge of the truth that has set our thinking right - the "breath of life", the "living water that wells up and overflows as a fountain of life" etc. That is what we are called to be, as vessels of The Holy Spirit. When we are speaking words of life, they are useful for cleansing the thinking of those whom we speak to, and if that seed falls on fertile soil then it may grow to produce 30, 60 or 100 times what was sown (1 Corinthians 3:6-7, Matthew 13:8).

"So, just as you hear the wind and you see it in the trees, but you don't know where it came from or whence it goes .. so it is with those born of the spirit".

Keeping with the OP what would you say delivers us from being a child of wrath in order to accept the Gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

I guess the takeaway point of that, is that God teaches us through the words that His spirit touches us with, day by day, and there comes a time when our awareness of the sin that enslaves us gives us a new understanding that we may recognise that we have been wrong, so we begin to think and do right instead of wrong - that way being "set free" by repentance and no longer enslaved by the sin.

"Amen, amen I tell you, whoever hears My word and trusts the One who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed over from death into life"

Do you hold to a moment of conversion? Meaning where we are dead in our trespasses and sins children of wrath and then we are made alive in Christ?

That’s what the OP is about. Unless you are opting to show there is another way.

 

[redleghunter]

John 1:11-13 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

11 He came to his own homeland,
yet his own people did not receive him.


12 But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.


Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
===================================
BRG
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
CSB
who were born, not of natural descent, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.
CEB
born not from blood nor from human desire or passion, but born from God.
CJB
not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.
CEV
They were not God’s children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children.

If I have you position correct by the quoted verses you see God initiating the call and not us.

If this be the case then why are some called and accept and some called and reject?

 

[redleghunter]

Wesley (in his Arminian convictions) correctly perceived that this implied a Calvinistic soteriology which he did not accept. He therefore taught the doctrine of prevenient grace - that God's prevenient grace awakens a sinner's heart enough for them to be able to choose God, but that this grace is resistible. If you reject the Augustinian (Calvinistic) view, then you must accept Wesley's view of prevenient grace or else be a Pelagian.

I believe even Prevenient Grace theory has unanswered questions such as why some awakened hearts accept and why some reject?

I have not heard a satisfactory answer to that.

 

[Serving Zion]

Keeping with the OP what would you say delivers us from being a child of wrath in order to accept the Gospel.

It is the breath of life: "God breathed into Adam and he became a living being" .. "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life", "whoever hears my word and trusts the one who sent me, does not come into judgement (see John 3:36) but has passed over from death to life".

In order to accept The Gospel is a different thing again than being born of the spirit.. because it is about information rather than spirit. Spirit is what gives life, information is what equips a spirit to convey understanding. So The Holy Spirit can operate within cultures where the message (information) of The Gospel is not yet available to them - and He can achieve so much with the available information resources. In comparison, it is possible for the information of The Gospel to be presented with the wrong spirit so that it doesn't really have the impact of The Gospel at all - and in fact, because there are many wolves in sheep's clothing, they do misrepresent The Gospel and turn many away from finding the truth in it.

So being delivered from being a child of wrath is about repentance (1 John 3:14: we know that have passed from death to life because we love the brethren) - there are people who love the brethren although not understanding the knowledge of biblical scripture sufficiently to confess faith in Jesus Christ. In order to accept The Gospel, one has to receive sufficient understanding of it, in order that they recognise Jesus is Lord and in that way, the seed takes root, beginning to grow and produce 30, 60, 100 fold what was sown.

 

[Serving Zion]

Do you hold to a moment of conversion? Meaning where we are dead in our trespasses and sins children of wrath and then we are made alive in Christ?

That’s what the OP is about. Unless you are opting to show there is another way.

Yes, it is whenever The Holy Spirit does His work of convicting, that is sufficient for a person to "leave their life of sin". That is when He takes possession of their spirit again, because He has delivered them from bondage to sin, according to the principle in Romans 6:16.

It would be useful if we could agree on the definition of "children of wrath". Here is some idea for a starting point:

children = offspring, fruit of a womb, something brought forth, formed in the image of etc
wrath = asserting violence as a means of domination or control "if you .. then I will .."

So the way the world works, is fundamentally not of love but of wrath:

"If you break the law I will punish you" .. vs "why would you do that? can't you see that it is wrong?"

This is how "love endures all things, hopes all things, believes all things, trusts all things".

 

[redleghunter]

It is the breath of life: "God breathed into Adam and he became a living being" .. "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life", "whoever hears my word and trusts the one who sent me, does not come into judgement (see John 3:36) but has passed over from death to life".

In order to accept The Gospel is a different thing again than being born of the spirit.. because it is about information rather than spirit. Spirit is what gives life, information is what equips a spirit to convey understanding. So The Holy Spirit can operate within cultures where the message (information) of The Gospel is not yet available to them - and He can achieve so much with the available information resources. In comparison, it is possible for the information of The Gospel to be presented with the wrong spirit so that it doesn't really have the impact of The Gospel at all - and in fact, because there are many wolves in sheep's clothing, they do misrepresent The Gospel and turn many away from finding the truth in it.

So being delivered from being a child of wrath is about repentance (1 John 3:14: we know that have passed from death to life because we love the brethren) - there are people who love the brethren although not understanding the knowledge of biblical scripture sufficiently to confess faith in Jesus Christ. In order to accept The Gospel, one has to receive sufficient understanding of it, in order that they recognise Jesus is Lord and in that way, the seed takes root, beginning to grow and produce 30, 60, 100 fold what was sown.

If we stick with the OP which view best represents your view as I can’t figure it out with your posts. I posted three views prevalent in Christian history.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, it is whenever The Holy Spirit does His work of convicting, that is sufficient for a person to "leave their life of sin". That is when He takes possession of their spirit again, because He has delivered them from bondage to sin, according to the principle in Romans 6:16.

Sorry I missed this.

With the above is your view the Holy Spirit initiates the call to the Gospel and as such quickens us and we with this repent and accept Christ our Savior and Lord?

If so then why does this not happen for all?