How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[fhansen]

That’s incorrect. The effectual call is the means God uses for regeneration. Faith comes by hearing. It’s not potential faith, but actual faith. So when we are born again, we are more free than ever, and will freely chose Christ.

So we can't choose, we can't reject the gift of faith? Or walk away from the relationship afterwards? IMO you put the cart ahead of the horse when you say man is completely regenerated first. And is only then free. If this is so then God isn't worth following anyway; He'd be a tyrant, untrustworthy if He otherwise sends slaves to hell, who He's basically enslaved to begin with.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Following the prince of darkness is not the same as having them as a parent.

 

[Hammster]

So we can't choose, we can't reject the gift of faith? Or walk away from the relationship afterwards? IMO you put the cart ahead of the horse when you say man is completely regenerated first. And is only then free. If this is so then God isn't worth following anyway; He'd be a tyrant, untrustworthy if He otherwise sends slaves to hell, who He's basically enslaved to begin with.

God would only be a tyrant if He sent innocent people to hell. Or sent those to hell who Christ died for. Deciding to love some and not send them to hell, instead sending His Son to pay their penalty, is the most loving thing He could do.

 

[danielmears]

Good day Daniel. Thanks for the response.

Is your view that it is a mystery and as such be joyful for the call to Christ from God? Or is your view that somehow we have some internal good which leads us to Christ?

For many are called, but few are chosen.Matt. 22:14 Probably of the former camp, extremely grateful. Who knows why, the Word, resonates with some and not others. My simple mind does not but God knows. As Christ stated, no one is good save the Father, when referred to as, "good teacher". May you and all be blessed as we delve into, the mysteries of God!

 

[Hammster]

Following the prince of darkness is not the same as having them as a parent.

It’s worse.

 

[Tree of Life]

So we can't choose, we can't reject the gift of faith? Or walk away from the relationship afterwards? IMO you put the cart ahead of the horse when you say man is completely regenerated first. And is only then free. If this is so then God isn't worth following anyway; He'd be a tyrant, untrustworthy if He otherwise sends slaves to hell, who He's basically enslaved to begin with.

Would God have been unjust to pass over every sinner and save none? He saves people by his free grace, not because he owes them anything.

If God is not unjust to pass over every sinner and save none, then he is certainly not unjust to save some and pass over others.

 

[fhansen]

God would only be a tyrant if He sent innocent people to hell. Or sent those to hell who Christ died for. Deciding to love some and not send them to hell, instead sending His Son to pay their penalty, is the most loving thing He could do.

Hmm, the most loving thing He could do is to love all, as Scripture says He does, and desire all to choose salvation. But sending some to eternal torment, who have no choice in their non-innocence to begin with, is not the action of a God who'd be worth spending eternity with. It only works if salvation is universal

 

[Hammster]

Hmm, the most loving thing He could do is to love all, as Scripture says He does, and desire all to choose salvation. But sending some to eternal torment, who have no choice in their non-innocence to begin with, is not the action of a God who'd be worth spending eternity with. It only works if salvation is universal

If you want to go that route, then giving everyone a new heart would be the most loving thing. Since He doesn’t, do you still want to spend eternity with Him?

 

[martymonster]

There is no such thing as man's fallen nature, there is only the man natural state, which is exactly what you see around you, every day.


1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Jer_18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


We are all the work of his hand, and in our natural state, we are not interested in coming to him, but our choosing to come to him, is actually his choosing us to come to him. Everything is the work of God's hands, even that.

 

[fhansen]

If you want to go that route, then giving everyone a new heart would be the most loving thing. Since He doesn’t, do you still want to spend eternity with Him?

No, not with Him. There'd be no guarantee heaven should be any better than hell.

 

[Hammster]

No, not with Him. There'd be no guarantee heaven should be any better than hell.

What?

 

[Serving Zion]

Getting closer to addressing the OP.

How does one as dead in sin and by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2) get there?

By crucifying the flesh with it's passions.

It is the passions of the flesh (eg: pride, envy, wrath, greed etc) that cause us to oppose the good and proper word, that is the "way, the truth and the life", "Nobody comes to the father, except by me" and "you study the scriptures so diligently, because you think you have life in them - but the scriptures testify of me, and yet you refuse to come to me to have life" (Jesus spoke those words as the living embodiment of The Word - whereas we, when we are vessels of The Holy Spirit and members individually of His body, we are much less assuming when we speak that way).

Again this is not a thread on original sin. However, one just needs to look at Genesis 3 to refute this. They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So yes that at the very least is what’s different than before the fall.

Adam and Eve were different after the fall. But you are drawing a conclusion that their babies have inherited some spiritual degradation as a result of Adam and Eve's sin, and there is no scriptural evidence for that (much less does it make any sense - because "the words I have spoken to you - they are spirit and life" - and "the power of life and death is in the tongue").

A spirit is imparted ("breathed") into the one who yields to it, not inherited or "imputed" as you would say. Eve yielded to the spirit of the Nachash and Adam yielded to the same spirit coming through her, and at some point along the way, we must assume that their children have yielded to the spirit that was in them - in that way, having become "children of wrath - of the same spirit that operates in the sons of disobedience".

Now, didn't Adam and Eve also become a "son of disobedience" by definition because they did disobey? In the same way, the scriptures you have been quoting to Maria show that the Jews who were not obeying Jesus were disobedient, and that is why they were of their father the devil. They responded to Jesus' word as Romans 7:9 says: the commandment came, but they did not humble themselves so as to love the truth but delighted in unrighteousness - thus they were judged.

The same principles apply today "those who are of the truth hear me" and "to him who has, more will be given that they will have an abundance - but those who do not have, even what they do have shall be taken away", so that "anyone who is not with me is scattered" and "they are cast away, as branches they wither, and men gather them up to be burned".

Hi Serving Zion, why do, "ALL come to do sin", if God made each one of us upright/obedient/righteous/good

The power of life and death is in the tongue. The deceiver was subtle. Children aren't born believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy - it is the grown ups that tell them lies like that.

If we are all truly born that way, then surely at least 50% of us should have been able to make it to Glory on our own/without needing a Savior, but no one has,

I don't agree with you about that. I look at babies and children as already having made it to glory, and that they are gradually corrupted and eventually put to death by the world, because the world (ie: the grown-ups) is wholly fallen, and therefore they, having the natural position of dominance over the children, have the upper hand that refuses to acknowledge the glory that belongs to those who have life in the heavenly realm (Mark 10:14, Matthew 18:10).

not even one of us .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12.

How can that be

Romans 3:12 has the very answer in the word "exeklinan" :

to deviate, to turn away (from someone or something)

.. that specifically shows that something has come along (a temptation) that has caused them to turn away from Christ "the way, the truth and the life". That temptation is, as found in James 1:14, the desire that enticed us.

Also, what does "by nature" refer to in the passage below concerning the "children of wrath"?

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Thanks!

--David

In that context, it is referring to the origin of a person's actions or speech - "naturally, I would not have done that if I had known better" or "of course, naturally! .. that's just who I am ".

So, he is saying that their nature was as the rest, a child of wrath. Their natural response was to act with wrath (instead of love).

Check post #18 too:

So the way the world works, is fundamentally not of love but of wrath:

"If you break the law I will punish you" .. vs "why would you do that? can't you see that it is wrong?"

Romans 3
23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

"have sinned" - is describing a transgression. When did that first happen for you, or your child, or anyone else you can think of that is not Adam and Eve?

 

[redleghunter]

Adam and Eve were different after the fall. But you are drawing a conclusion that their babies have inherited some spiritual degradation as a result of Adam and Eve's sin, and there is no scriptural evidence for that (much less does it make any sense - because "the words I have spoken to you - they are spirit and life" - and "the power of life and death is in the tongue").

The evidence is in the advancing chapters of Genesis. Cain killed his brother and God flooded the Earth because mankind’s heart was exceedingly wicked.

 

[redleghunter]

By crucifying the flesh with it's passions.

What happens before this according to Romans?

 

[Serving Zion]

The evidence is in the advancing chapters of Genesis. Cain killed his brother and God flooded the Earth because mankind’s heart was exceedingly wicked.

That's right .. but where is the evidence that shows it was "inherited" or "imputed" rather than "taught" or "passed on"? (have you yet understood the view that I have? .. I have explained it to you plenty .. but I think you aren't really reading what I write).

 

[Serving Zion]

What happens before this according to Romans?

It sounds like you will have to tell me.

 

[redleghunter]

That's right .. but where is the evidence that shows it was "inherited" or "imputed" rather than "taught" or "passed on"? (have you yet understood the view that I have? .. I have explained it to you plenty .. but I think you aren't really reading what I write).

How did Adam teach murder to Cain?

This is what God said to Cain:

Genesis 4: ESV

3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORDan offering of the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,5but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7If you do well, will you not be accepted?b And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary toc you, but you must rule over it.” (ESV)

Seems Cain had a nature God said he had to master over. It was sin.

 

[redleghunter]

It sounds like you will have to tell me.

Yes Justification by faith.

 

[fhansen]

What?

A god who would predestine some everyday unbelieving Joe to eternal torment, with Joe having no responsibility for his sin, and no way to choose for or against life and death, good and evil, God or no God, can only mean that God would be directly responsible for all evil, the direct cause of it. That God would be inferior to Satan, morally speaking .

 

[throughfiierytrial]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

We do not choose Christ, He calls us and enlightens us with His Word and the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:29-30:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

This requires acceptance of the doctrine of predestination and I know some reject this doctrine. It is spelled out in the Scriptures however.

Passage for the "how" of coming to faith...
Romans 10:17:
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Additional passages on "how" we manage to come to faith despite our sinful nature...
Romans 5:5:
...God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us...

John 16:14:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

Philippians 2:13:
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.