How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[redleghunter]

I believe this is difficult for Wesleyans and Arminians to answer. Some might chalk it up the mystery in the same way that Calvinists would chalk up God's choice in election to mystery. I often pose this question to Arminian friends: "Why did we choose Jesus and another didn't? Are we smarter, more honest, more virtuous, etc?" I've yet to hear a good answer.

The answers in this thread to similar questions is choice.

 

[redleghunter]

Look at it this way. If someone has three children and raises them as equals and only two out of the three loves that parent and one of those children does not, is it the choice of the parent that the child chose not love them. No. Is it the parent who chose only to love two and not three? No. Then why did the 3rd child reject their parent? It was their choice and the reasons can be endless.

Using your example does it mean those who grow up in a church environment learning the ways of the Lord will choose God and those not will not?

Or is it an invalid example as Paul says we are all children of wrath and our parent is satan until God makes us alive in Christ?

 

[SaintCody777]

As Christians we know that since the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 we are children of Adam and as such our nature is fallen.

The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 depicts a dire sinful state we are in as children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: ESV
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.(ESV)

A dire picture contrasted by the Amazing Grace, Mercy and Love of God.

What’s interesting is the chapter begins with Paul telling his audience that they were dead in their trespasses, following satan and the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience. They lived in passions of our flesh carrying out the desires of the body and by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

But the good news Paul tells us is that God made them alive together with Christ then says this is by Grace.

How does one come to choose this Grace when even when we were dead in our trespasses it was God who made us alive?

Some say we choose God and then He makes us alive. Well the passage clearly says God makes us alive by His Grace. If this is someone’s view they will have to explain it.

Some say God equally calls all and some choose and some reject. That would be adding to the text but I would like to hear a discussion on how this happens and why some are more inclined than others to accept than reject.

Some say God calls all to the Gospel but not everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. This is called the difference between general call and effectual call. With effectual call being those who hear with ears which hear do choose God but with a new heart which is not dead. That “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

I’m sure there are other views and hope to see them so we can discuss them. I think we all agree unless one is a Universalist there are those who accept Christ and those who reject Him. The Bible says such or Jesus would not preach sheep and goats.

So how does someone dead in their trespasses and sins, children of satan after the ways of the flesh by nature children of wrath come to hear the Gospel and choose Christ making Him their Lord and Savior thus loving and obeying Him?

This seems just, excuse the phrase, humanly impossible.

God Bless!

Romans 3:9-18 also affirms that humanity is born sinful.
Romans 3:9-19 NIV
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [10] As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; [11] there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. [12] All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” [13] “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” [14] “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” [15] “Their feet are swift to shed blood; [16] ruin and misery mark their ways, [17] and the way of peace they do not know.” [18] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Some people, like those of the Holiness Movement that follow Charles Finney and deny original sin, misconstrue total depravity as an excuse to keep on sinning. People like Kerrigan Skelly, who holds to sinless perfection, even thinks that total depravity is very popular in churches today.
But believe me, if a church or a pastor teaches that man has a neutral free will to choose to do good or evil and that we do not need any sort of previnent grace from God to give man the light to true righteousness, believe me, it would be a very popular church. That is how people like Billy Graham became popular. He and other well known preachers today, follow Finney and Palegius' footsteps in teaching that man, on his own, still has the free will to choose Christ. This kind of neutral free will bring the defining tenant of secular Humanism and nominal Christianity today also proves that the denial of total depravity of men is very popular in today's society.

 

[fhansen]

There is a leap of concept you make. We do freely choose God. I believe I made that clear in the OP.

I think I made the point we are all in a fallen state and by nature children of wrath. Regardless if you believe we all have a spark of Imago Dei we are in the same separated state. Yet for some that spark becomes a flame and for some they remain children of wrath.

I also affirmed in the OP that the Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). Yet for all who hear not all believe. What makes the believers different responding to the Gospel? I think your previous posts affirm it is the Holy Spirit by God’s Grace which would affirm both apostolic teachings and the Council of Orange.

Even by your position there is need for some further explanation. Because if the Holy Spirit is responsible for the Grace you received, who exactly is responsible for not receiving God’s Grace?

We're responsible for rejecting it. The will of man has been the "prize", so to speak, from the beginning. Otherwise God may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate from the beginning and avoided all the sin, pain, and suffering-all the evil- that ensued after the original sin. He could've prevented Adam from sinning to begin with for that matter.

But instead He culitvated humankind, like a farmer, patiently working with and coaxing His wayward creation to a perfection that He expects it to participate in. Grace is an indepensible part of this process, this plan that He's had since the beginning of creation.

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 3:9-18 also affirms that humanity is born sinful.
Romans 3:9-19 NIV
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [10] As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; [11] there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. [12] All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” [13] “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” [14] “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” [15] “Their feet are swift to shed blood; [16] ruin and misery mark their ways, [17] and the way of peace they do not know.” [18] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Some people, like those of the Holiness Movement that follow Charles Finney and deny original sin, misconstrue total depravity as an excuse to keep on sinning. People like Kerrigan Skelly, who holds to sinless perfection, even thinks that total depravity is very popular in churches today.
But believe me, if a church or a pastor teaches that man has a neutral free will to choose to do good or evil and that we do not need any sort of previnent grace from God to give man the light to true righteousness, believe me, it would be a very popular church. That is how people like Billy Graham became popular. He and other well known preachers today, follow Finney and Palegius' footsteps in teaching that man, on his own, still has the free will to choose Christ. This kind of neutral free will bring the defining tenant of secular Humanism and nominal Christianity today also proves that the denial of total depravity of men is very popular in today's society.

Quite an exhibition thank you for contributing.

 

[redleghunter]

We're responsible for rejecting it. The will of man has been the "prize", so to speak, from the beginning. Otherwise God may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate from the beginning and avoided all the sin, pain, and suffering-all the evil- that ensued after the original sin. He could've prevented Adam from sinning to begin withwith that matter.

But instead He culitvated humankind, like a farmer, patiently working with and coaxing His wayward creation to a perfection that He expects it to participate in. Grace is an indepensible part of this process, this plan that He's had since the beginning of creation.

Yet some will perish. What makes some cultivation good and some lacking? Would not the responsibility point back to the cultivator?

I will note the “plan” was from before the foundations of the Earth. So before man was created the Divine plan of redemption was sealed.

 

[SaintCody777]

Man is totally depraved and on his own willpower, cannot choose what is truly good (as explained in Genesis 3, Ephesians 2, and Romans 3:9-18. Even Isaiah said he had unclean lips. And Jeremiah recognized he was so sinful that he saw it as a regretful curse.The natural Man loves his sin so much and does not want to give it up (John 3:19). The only reason why mankind has a freewill to choose Christ is because God sent down previnent grace on all of humanity (John 6:44-7).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Using your example does it mean those who grow up in a church environment learning the ways of the Lord will choose God and those not will not?

Or is it an invalid example as Paul says we are all children of wrath and our parent is satan until God makes us alive in Christ?

Paul is exaggerating a point. We have lost our innocence. Those who have faith in God will reap what He has planned for them. Its simple, but I know you want to complicate it. I choose not to.
Blessings

PS: I do not see scripture stating that Paul said our parent is Satan. Please share.

 

[redleghunter]

The only reason why mankind has a freewill to choose Christ is because God sent down previnent grace on all of humanity (John 6:44-7).

Can you explain how “Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me” is everyone has prevenient Grace?

It seems that statement from Christ shows not all.

 

[redleghunter]

Paul is exaggerating a point. We have lost our innocence. Those who have faith in God will reap what He has planned for them. Its simple, but I know you want to complicate it. I choose not to.
Blessings

Nothing to complicate. Paul is not exaggerating as he makes the same statements in Romans.

 

[fhansen]

Again this is a “problem” for your view as well. Because some are more inclined to receive than others.

If they're inclined by their own will, regardless of sufficient grace to be inclined otherwise, then the problem is theirs. We simply cannot take man's will totally out of the equation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ephesians 2 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

From Death to Life
2 You were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christa ]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

 

[redleghunter]

Ephesians 2 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

From Death to Life
2 You were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christa ]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Thank you for reposting the passage I quoted in the OP.

 

[redleghunter]

If they're inclined by their own will, regardless of sufficient grace to be inclined otherwise, then the problem is theirs. We simply cannot take man's will totally out of the equation.

Who is taking the will of man out of the equation?

The OP states we freely choose. What was in the passage from Ephesians 2 shows we all start with that will in bondage to sin and death, satan as our parent and by nature children of wrath.

By your model God cultivates the condemned soil infusing Grace and some produce and some don’t. Do I have it correct?

 

[fhansen]

Who is taking the will of man out of the equation?

The OP states we freely choose. What was in the passage from Ephesians 2 shows we all start with that will in bondage to sin and death, satan as our parent and by nature children of wrath.

By your model God cultivates the condemned soil infusing Grace and some produce and some don’t. Do I have it correct?

Yes

 

[redleghunter]

Who is taking the will of man out of the equation?

The OP states we freely choose. What was in the passage from Ephesians 2 shows we all start with that will in bondage to sin and death, satan as our parent and by nature children of wrath.

By your model God cultivates the condemned soil infusing Grace and some produce and some don’t. Do I have it correct?

Yes

As stated earlier this view evokes all sorts of questions of fairness and justice according to the model set by others opposed to effectual call. In effect, there is little difference logically.

 

[redleghunter]

PS: I do not see scripture stating that Paul said our parent is Satan. Please share.

From Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2: ESV

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Jesus in John 8 confronts unbelievers and tells them their father is the devil:

John 8: ESV

43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The OP states we freely choose. What was in the passage from Ephesians 2 shows we all start with that will in bondage to sin and death, satan as our parent and by nature children of wrath.

By your model God cultivates the condemned soil infusing Grace and some produce and some don’t. Do I have it correct?

Was the woman with an infirmary 18 years like "the condemned soil" ?
No - Jesus called her a daughter of Avraham.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 13 - Complete Jewish Bible

It is not written what she thought, but she was bound 18 years.

Someone stronger than the adversary was needed to set her free.

No matter what she chose (as in "freely choose") , apparently or obviously, she was not strong enough to set herself free.

Jesus set her free.

12 On seeing her, Yeshua called her and said to her, “Lady, you have been set free from your weakness!” 13 He put his hands on her, and at once she stood upright and began to glorify God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Paul is exaggerating a point. We have lost our innocence. Those who have faith in God will reap what He has planned for them. Its simple, but I know you want to complicate it. I choose not to.
Blessings PS: I do not see scripture stating that Paul said our parent is Satan. Please share.

Scripture is simple.
Our parent is hasatan to start with, as shown by Scripture already posted.
This is true of everyone on earth.
We all were once subject to the prince of the power of the air , the devil,
same as everyone else on earth. (those who still are are called the sons of disobedience in the Scripture posted and elsewhere)

 

[redleghunter]

Was the woman with an infirmary 18 years like "the condemned soil" ?
No - Jesus called her a daughter of Avraham.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 13 - Complete Jewish Bible

Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel. She was burdened with an infirmary and Jesus acted to remove that infirmary without her saying a word.

No matter what she chose (as in "freely choose") , apparently or obviously, she was not strong enough to set herself free.

Amen!

Jesus set her free.

Amen!