How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

redleghunter

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A god who would predestine some everyday unbelieving Joe to eternal torment, with Joe having no responsibility for his sin, and no way to choose for or against life and death, good and evil, God or no God, can only mean that God would be directly responsible for all evil, the direct cause of it. That God would be inferior to Satan, morally speaking .
We are not responsible for our own sins?
 
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Serving Zion

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How did Adam teach murder to Cain?
There is not enough information to make that speculation, but it would be something to do with rage (as in, the fruit of wrath - "the same spirit that operates in the sons of disobedience").

Cain, having never known what murder is, in the moment of rage picked up a rock without giving it a second thought. In these subsequent days, we know the consequence of losing control in rage, and that knowledge equips a person in such a situation to take a deep breath and walk away (and yet, despite that people have that knowledge, sometimes they still cannot be the master of the sin to that degree) - but it does still help to have the knowledge of how to manage rage to prevent it from becoming murder. Cain had no such knowledge of how to handle the rage and murder came about because the sin got the master of him.
This is what God said to Cain:

Genesis 4: ESV

3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORDan offering of the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,5but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7If you do well, will you not be accepted?b And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary toc you, but you must rule over it.” (ESV)

Seems Cain had a nature God said he had to master over. It was sin.
Sin is not a nature, it is an adversary.
 
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Serving Zion

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Yes Justification by faith.
How do you say that they are not one of the same? .. that it is because we have crucified the flesh (ie: repented in order to do the will of the spirit), that brings us out of the possession of sin (Romans 6:16) and into the possession of God, whereby we are born again, and by having a knowledge of the fact that because of our repentance, we are justified by faith? (for, without repentance, that is to say that sin still has the mastery over us, then there is no justification by faith but condemnation).
 
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throughfiierytrial

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We do not choose Christ, He calls us and enlightens us with His Word and the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:29-30:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

This requires acceptance of the doctrine of predestination and I know some reject this doctrine. It is spelled out in the Scriptures however.

Passage for the "how" of coming to faith...
Romans 10:17:
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Additional passages on "how" we manage to come to faith despite our sinful nature...
Romans 5:5:
...God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us...

John 16:14:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

Philippians 2:13:
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Should have added this passage...
Titus 3:3-8:
At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying.
 
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redleghunter

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There is not enough information to make that speculation, but it would be something to do with rage (as in, the fruit of wrath - "the same spirit that operates in the sons of disobedience").

God warned Cain in the provided passage I gave you:

Genesis 4: ESV
3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORDan offering of the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,5but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7If you do well, will you not be accepted?b And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary toc you, but you must rule over it.” (ESV)

Then he killed his brother.

Romans 3: ESV

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


Cain, having never known what murder is, in the moment of rage picked up a rock without giving it a second thought.
Which sounds like what a decent defense attorney would evoke for a plea bargain.

Cain had no such knowledge of how to handle the rage and murder came about because the sin got the master of him.
He sure did. God advised him in the Genesis quote I posted now for the second time.
 
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redleghunter

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Also, while I am considering this matter, it would be useful to see the verses of Romans that you have referred to here. Thanks!
I recommend reading the entire epistle to the Romans. No offense but it seems you omit knowledge of large portions.
 
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redleghunter

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How do you say that they are not one of the same? .. that it is because we have crucified the flesh (ie: repented in order to do the will of the spirit), that brings us out of the possession of sin (Romans 6:16) and into the possession of God, whereby we are born again, and by having a knowledge of the fact that because of our repentance, we are justified by faith? (for, without repentance, that is to say that sin still has the mastery over us, then there is no justification by faith but condemnation).
How do you crucify the flesh without first being Justified before a Holy God.

Please the verse plucking with eisegesis is maddening. Can you point to any epistle or even passage which supports what you write?

Every one of your quotes avoids Romans chapters one through five and I think I know why. You are avoiding Justification by faith in the shed blood of Christ which satisfies the wrath of God. There’s no crucifying the flesh without first being Justified.
 
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Serving Zion

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I recommend reading the entire epistle to the Romans. No offense but it seems you omit knowledge of large portions.
I know what Romans says, but it would help with the impact of your message if you could point to some specific words (because, remember, you are "teaching" - that means that you need to bring my mind to see what you think I can't see. Telling me to read Romans does not assist you much in doing that).
How do you crucify the flesh without first being Justified before a Holy God.
The flesh is the thing that tempts us to transgress the law of God - so therefore it is the reason that we do not do the truth (in other words, "walking in the darkness" and "not having fellowship with one another"). That is why you see Christians getting at each other's throats instead of being in agreement - there is some disunity because one of them (and often it is both of them!), they are more interested in what they want to achieve in the conversation than what The Holy Spirit wants to achieve. They are not serving The Holy Spirit that is in each other, but they are serving the flesh.

So I can see how there is a way of thinking that they might be "justified by faith" even though still not having crucified their flesh - but I am not so sure whether to believe that they are justified by their faith while being in that state, or whether they are only being possessed by The Holy Spirit in His mercy while He leads them toward repentance - at which time they will hear the word of truth that convicts them and turns them to repentance (to crucify the flesh) and thereby becoming justified in God's sight.

That is what I am giving consideration to at the present moment. That is why I have asked for you to provide the scripture to support your view. Nevertheless, if I am to read Romans 1-5 I might find the specific verses that you have in mind, but it is not guaranteed. Either way, if you have the goods of the world and you see a brother in need, would you equip him or would you close your heart to him?

Please the verse plucking with eisegesis is maddening. Can you point to any epistle or even passage which supports what you write?
Yes, all of what I write is supported by scripture. Which part do you require to see scriptural support for?
Every one of your quotes avoids Romans chapters one through five and I think I know why.
You need to explain why you think so, because when I read Romans 1-5 it all rings true to my understanding.
You are avoiding Justification by faith in the shed blood of Christ which satisfies the wrath of God. There’s no crucifying the flesh without first being Justified.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, all of what I write is supported by scripture. Which part do you require to see scriptural support for?
What is the Gospel? I’m sitting on a park bench and you have one minute to present me the Gospel what is it?
 
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Serving Zion

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I’m asking because I don’t see the Gospel in your comments. A lot of good comments on Sanctification but missing the what Justifies us before a Holy God.
No, go with me on this. That is my opening line to you as you sit on the park bench. When I share The Gospel, it is a conversation, not a one-minute speech (though it has been known to happen - just, that's the reality).

So, I walk up to you on the park bench and I've got your attention, my business with you as a stranger is exactly that: Do you know The Lord?

(it is your turn to respond)
 
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Serving Zion

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Romans chapters one through five.
OK, that was useful in that context, but I didn't find any conclusive answer to the question. Furthermore, Romans 6:1 says "are we to continue in sin?" that is basically saying that in order for sin to have no more control over us, we have crucified the flesh.

So I am at this point inferring from reading all of that, that for a person to have been justified by faith, they need to have repented, and I didn't notice anything in that passage of scripture that would not support that view.
 
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fhansen

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We are not responsible for our own sins?
If we cannot do otherwise, through no fault of our own, then no, we're not responsible for our sins. We're just a bunch of beings that God basically created to sin, then apparently blamed for sinning. But if we can do otherwise, if we can choose light over darkness, good over evil, even if the help of grace is needed, then we're responsible for our sin, for what we do with that grace first of all.
 
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redleghunter

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OK, that was useful in that context, but I didn't find any conclusive answer to the question. Furthermore, Romans 6:1 says "are we to continue in sin?" that is basically saying that in order for sin to have no more control over us, we have crucified the flesh.

So I am at this point inferring from reading all of that, that for a person to have been justified by faith, they need to have repented, and I didn't notice anything in that passage of scripture that would not support that view.
We cannot repent without God’s Grace. That is why I pointed to you that we are Justified by faith. Crucifying the flesh cannot happen without the Righteousness of God gifted to us.
 
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redleghunter

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If we cannot do otherwise, through no fault of our own, then no, we're not responsible for our sins. We're just a bunch of beings that God basically created to sin, then apparently blamed for sinning. But if we can do otherwise, if we can choose light over darkness, good over evil, even if the help of grace is needed, then we're responsible for our sin, for what we do with that grace first of all.
No we are beings who are children of disobedience which is the imputed sin of Adam. Adam and Eve were created without sin and chose the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Making us offspring of the that tree.

It is that nature which must be dealt with and in which God in His eternal plan of redemption provided.

Paul in Ephesians 2 makes the stark contrast of a child of wrath vs a child of God. He lays out that in our dead state God in His Mercy and love makes us alive in Christ and says by Grace you have been saved.
 
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martymonster

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If we cannot do otherwise, through no fault of our own, then no, we're not responsible for our sins. We're just a bunch of beings that God basically created to sin, then apparently blamed for sinning. But if we can do otherwise, if we can choose light over darkness, good over evil, even if the help of grace is needed, then we're responsible for our sin, for what we do with that grace first of all.

Paul covers this topic.


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
 
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Serving Zion

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We cannot repent without God’s Grace.
Can you please explain what that means to you? I know what it means to me, but I suspect that we probably are not looking at this the same way.
That is why I pointed to you that we are Justified by faith.
Right, but we cannot have faith without repentance.. can we? (Have you ever known a person who has become a Christian without first having come to know that they have been a sinner and that they need to repent and begin following Christ?
Crucifying the flesh cannot happen without the Righteousness of God gifted to us.
Can you show some scripture that supports this idea? To me, it seems that righteousness is the result of the crucifying of the flesh: because by crucifying the flesh we are becoming obedient to our conscience in light of His Word ("putting to death the flesh with it's passions, that is at war with the spirit") - and it is our obedience to His commandments that keeps us justified in His sight (John 15: "you have been made clean by the word I have spoken to you (look at the significance of obedience as "justification to life" in John 3:36 and John 6:63-69)" .. "now, remain in me" and Romans 8: "there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, who walk not according to the flesh but the spirit").

St Peter also explains that baptism saves us in a like manner to how the ark saved Noah: it is a "pledge of a good conscience" toward God, through the resurrection of Christ Jesus.
 
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