Approaches to Eschatology

YeshuaFan

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Like most Dispensationalists, you have misquoted the text to make your doctrine work.
You left out one very important little word in Romans 11:26.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(The Greek word "houto" translated to "so", is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (What is the covenant that took away sin found in Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.)

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(There are two different groups of "they" in this verse. There are "they" which rejected the Gospel, and there is a group of "they", which are the election who accepted the Gospel.)


Verse 26 refers back to verses 23 and 24, which are speaking of those who come to faith and are grafted back into the tree.
And in this way all of Israel, who is the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, will be saved.

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On that day, the time of the Second Coming, there shall be a fountain of salvation opened up in Jerusalem, all of them shall look upon Him and mourn, and Israel shall be reborn again as a nation unto God in a single day, to fulfill Ezekiel prophecy of the restored bones who now have flesh once again!
 
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Biblewriter

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God will keep His promises, but those who call themselves Jews will not and cannot be the recipients.
God's true, righteous people, His Israelites by faith, Galatians 3:26-29, are every born again Christian.

By your categorical statements that ethnic Israel must be redeemed and all saved, you contradict the teachings of Jesus and in fact, of the whole Bible. Salvation is and always was available to all who will accept it. Your beliefs, Bible writer; oppose the over 20 prophesies that plainly tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah and only a remnant will be saved.
Romans 9:27....is an undeniable statement, that totally refutes the idea that all of Jewish Israel will be saved.
The salvation of all Israel is CONDITIONAL my friend.

"I magnify my ministry, IF by any means I MIGHT provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and MAY save SOME of them."
"In this manner SHOULD all Israel be saved."
"For God has committed them all to disobedience that he MIGHT have mercy upon all."

Any further dispute on this point is rank unbelief.

I have already quoted multiple scriptures that explicitly state that God Himself has promised to bring them to that faith which will meet every condition. So your counter dispute on this point is baseless. God has explicitly and repeatedly stated this in clear and plain words. so your refusal to believe them is indeed nothing but unbelief.
 
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YeshuaFan

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I have already quoted multiple scriptures that explicitly state that God Himself has promised to bring them to that faith which will meet every condition. So your counter dispute on this point is baseless.
Paul states that God will in the end still deal with the Jewish people, to prepare them to meet their God, Jesus at His returning!
 
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claninja

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The basis of the entire problem has finally come out. I came arguing about potatoes and you answered with an argument about watermelons.

Your argument is that Sennacherib never took the path listed in Isaiah 10:28-32. You argued that this was a fact. However, your theory cannot be proven as fact based on current evidence.


My point, from the very beginning, has been whether or not the path by which Sennacherib invaded the kingdom of Hezekiah corresponded to the invasion path defined in Isaiah 10:28-32.

We are not given the details of the invasion path from either Biblical or Secular records. We Know, that according to sennacherib he entered Judah from Ekron, which is located exactly West of Jerusalem. From this point we have no idea the path that he took to conquer 46 fortified cities and an unumbered amount of villages.

You imagine that this passage describes operations within the nation after an invasion had become an accomplished fact. But this is erroneous. For the path defined in Isaiah 10:28-32 begins at the northern edge of the ancient kingdom of Judea and ends at Jerusalem. So I have been discussing this as an invasion path, and I contend that this is an obvious conclusion, reached by almost every scholar that has analyzed it.

Once Sennacherib's army entered Judah, his invasion path to conquer 46 fortified cities and an un numbered amount of villages is unknown.

The path given in Isaiah 10:28-32 doesn't end at Jerusalem. It ends at Nob, where he shakes his hand at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 10:31-32 There go the people of Madmenah, all fleeing.The citizens of Gebim are trying to hide.
The enemy stops at Nob for the rest of that day. He shakes his fist at beautiful Mount Zion, the mountain of Jerusalem.

Josephus records Sennacherib taking cities in both the tribe of Judah AND the tribe of Benjamin. the 10 cities listed in Isaiah 10:28-32 were located in the tribe of Benjamin.

Antiquities of the Jews Book X chapter 1It was now the fourteenth year of the government of Hezekiah, King of the two tribes; when the King of Assyria, whose name was Sennacherib, made an expedition against him, with a great army; and took all the cities of the tribe of Judah and Benjamin by force.

What is known is that Senncherib invaded Judea by coming south along the seacoast, through the land of the Philistines, and entered Judea on its southwestern border.

According to Sennacherib, he entered the kingdom of Judah after Ekron. Ekron is located directly west of Jerusalem. So it wouldn't be the southwest border he entered from, but the northwest border of the kingdom of Judah, directly west of Jerusalem.

Sennacherib's prism Column 3
I approached Ekron and slew the governors and nobles 9who had rebelled, and 10hung their bodies on stakes around the city. The inhabitants 11who rebelled and treated (Assyria) lightly I counted as spoil. 12The rest of them, who were not guilty of rebellion 13and contempt, for whom there was no punishment, 14I declared their pardon. Padi, their king, 15I brought out to Jerusalem, 16set him on the royal throne over them, and 17imposed upon him my royal tribute.
18As for Hezekiah the Judahite, 19who did not submit to my yoke: forty-six of his strong, walled cities, as well as 20the small towns in their area,

From the point of entry we are given NO details of his path to conquer 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages WITHIN the kingdom of JUDAH

The account in Isaiah 10:28-32 describes a totally different invasion, in which the attacker will enter the kingdom, not on its southwestern border, but near the center of its northern border. And then advancing on Jerusalem by traveling south along the mountainous ridge at the center of the nation. This invasion path is totally different from the one Sennacherib followed.

Isaiah 10:28-32 doesn't mention how the attacker enters the kingdom of Judah. Aiath is not at the edge of the border, thus it is not impossible for Sennacherib's army to have traveled east to Aith and descended south. However, this cannot be proven as there are no details of the path sennacherib's took to conquer 46 foritified cities WITHIN the kingdom of Judah. All we know is that he did conquer all/46 fortified cities and un numbered villages within the kingdom of Judah.

You have been arguing about what Sennacherib did after he reached the southern portion of the kingdom, seemingly pushing a totally baseless theory about him having first conquered the southern region, then having gone back to the northern edge of the kingdom, and from there having returned along this path to Jerusalem.

My argument is that Sennacherib entered Judah from the northwest border after ekron, directly west of Jerusalem. From there we have no Idea which path he took to conquer all/46 fortified cities and un numbered villages.

My argument is that you cannot state it as FACT that Sennacherib's army never went through the cities listed in Isaiah 10:28-32. You may believe your evidence points to your opinion, but it is inappropriate to state it is a fact based on the current evidence we have.

But there is absolutely zero Biblical, historical, or archeological basis for such a theory.

Outside of Isaiah 10, there is zero biblical evidence of the path that Sennacherib took to conquer all of the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah. THere is zero secular evidence of the path Sennacherib took to conquer the 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages of Hezakiah's kingdom. THis has been my point the whole time. It cannot be proven, it is not known FACT. So to say it is a fact that Sennacherib never went through the cities mentioned in Isaiah 10:28-32 is false.

Do you have sources for your archaeological argument?

And your argument about the word "all" is no more logically sound. You have admitted that the Hebrew word translated "all" is not necessarily absolute. Yet you keep insisting that this time it is absolute, even after you have admitted that the scriptures plainly declare that this time it was not absolute. For the scriptures themselves explicitly say that there was an exception to this usage of the word "all."

and your argument that all requires a qualifier to be absolute is false, as there are many scriptures where all does not have a qualifier and is still absolute. My argument is simply how do we determine whether all is absolute or not without the presence of a qualifier. I argued context and specificity using scripture passages to back up my argument. What is your argument?
 
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BABerean2

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On that day, the time of the Second Coming, there shall be a fountain of salvation opened up in Jerusalem, all of them shall look upon Him and mourn, and Israel shall be reborn again as a nation unto God in a single day, to fulfill Ezekiel prophecy of the restored bones who now have flesh once again!

I have heard the narrative above many times, several of those occasions were from friends of mine.

The question is... Does it agree with scripture?
Will there be a second chance at salvation on the day of His Second Coming?

In the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25 Christ said they must be ready before the bridegroom comes.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 the Apostle Paul describes Christ returning "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God.

Your partial quote of Zechariah 12:10 can be found also in John 19 below.
The Apostle John said that part of the Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled at Calvary.
The rest of it would be fulfilled shortly after on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem, and about 3,000 mourned for the one they had seen pierced.


Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

The dry bones found in Ezekiel's prophecy is a reference to the bodily resurrection of the dead, which is described by Christ in John 5:27-30, and whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18.

.
 
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jgr

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As before, you are still completely ignoring the fact that God has promised to eventually bring this nation to faith and obedience. As I have already quoted the scriptures that explicitly state this, I will not quote them again.

But your explanation of the Good figs, and naughty/bad/evil figs is totally off base.

You say: "Good figs, those who '...return unto Me with their whole heart' in faith and obedience:" "Evil figs, those who rebel and disobey:"

But God Himself explicitly said:

5 "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge those who are carried away captive from Judah, whom I have sent out of this place for their own good, into the land of the Chaldeans. Jeremiah 24:5

8 'And as the bad figs which cannot be eaten, they are so bad'--surely thus says the LORD--'so will I give up Zedekiah the king of Judah, his princes, the residue of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt. Jeremiah 24:8

So the good figs were not "those who return unto me with their whole heart," but "those who are carried away captive from Judah." And the evil figs are not "those who rebel and disobey," but in addition to Zedekiah and his princes, "the residue of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt."

And the good figs were not selected because they would "return unto me with their whole heart." Rather the Lord promised to cause the good figs to "return unto me with their whole heart." That is what Jeremiah 24 teaches, in language so clear and plain that it is nothing short of unbelief to deny it.

Isaiah 10:22
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


So the Holy Spirit, Isaiah, and Paul were wrong?
 
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claninja

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In response to Biblewriter and claninja,
Isaiah 10 isn't about Sennacherib. It's about the end-time Assyrian anti-Christ who for centuries many believed would be an Assyrian, meaning, from that geohraphical area.

Isaiah prophesied the vision of chapter 10 prior to Hezekiah being king and prior to Sennacherib, king of assyria, invading the kingdom of Judah. The only time the Assyrians came even close to zion (jerusalem) was during Sennacherib's reign.

Isaiah 10:24 So this is what the Lord, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, says: “O my people in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrians when they oppress you with rod and club as the Egyptians did long ago.

the kingdom of Judah was oppressed by the Assyrian empire, under sennacherib, for a little while.

2 kings 18:13 In the fourteenth year of the reign of Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked and captured all the fortified cities of Judah. 14So Hezekiah king of Judah sent word to the king of Assyria at Lachish, saying, “I have done wrong; withdraw from me, and I will pay whatever you demand from me.”

But they eventually left

2 kings 19:36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria broke camp and withdrew. He returned to Nineveh and stayed there.


Just a heads up the assyrian empire was overthrown by the Babylonian empire and no longer exists. Additionally, there are no scriptures that associate the term "antichrist" with the ancient empire of Assyria.
 
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Douggg

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Its time for you, Douggg and all who have been fooled by the false Israel, to realize that ethnicity has nothing to do with Salvation. No one will be saved, unless they believe in God and accept Jesus.
The belief of a redeemed Jewish nation, is a seriously wrong teaching and a contradiction of the Bible.
You have never heard me state that Salvation is based on ethnicity.

"redeemed Jewish nation" - what do you mean? Are you saying the Jews, Jerusalem, are never going to say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord" ?
 
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Biblewriter

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Your argument is that Sennacherib never took the path listed in Isaiah 10:28-32. You argued that this was a fact. However, your theory cannot be proven as fact based on current evidence.




We are not given the details of the invasion path from either Biblical or Secular records. We Know, that according to sennacherib he entered Judah from Ekron, which is located exactly West of Jerusalem. From this point we have no idea the path that he took to conquer 46 fortified cities and an unumbered amount of villages.



Once Sennacherib's army entered Judah, his invasion path to conquer 46 fortified cities and an un numbered amount of villages is unknown.

The path given in Isaiah 10:28-32 doesn't end at Jerusalem. It ends at Nob, where he shakes his hand at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 10:31-32 There go the people of Madmenah, all fleeing.The citizens of Gebim are trying to hide.
The enemy stops at Nob for the rest of that day. He shakes his fist at beautiful Mount Zion, the mountain of Jerusalem.

Josephus records Sennacherib taking cities in both the tribe of Judah AND the tribe of Benjamin. the 10 cities listed in Isaiah 10:28-32 were located in the tribe of Benjamin.

Antiquities of the Jews Book X chapter 1It was now the fourteenth year of the government of Hezekiah, King of the two tribes; when the King of Assyria, whose name was Sennacherib, made an expedition against him, with a great army; and took all the cities of the tribe of Judah and Benjamin by force.



According to Sennacherib, he entered the kingdom of Judah after Ekron. Ekron is located directly west of Jerusalem. So it wouldn't be the southwest border he entered from, but the northwest border of the kingdom of Judah, directly west of Jerusalem.

Sennacherib's prism Column 3
I approached Ekron and slew the governors and nobles 9who had rebelled, and 10hung their bodies on stakes around the city. The inhabitants 11who rebelled and treated (Assyria) lightly I counted as spoil. 12The rest of them, who were not guilty of rebellion 13and contempt, for whom there was no punishment, 14I declared their pardon. Padi, their king, 15I brought out to Jerusalem, 16set him on the royal throne over them, and 17imposed upon him my royal tribute.
18As for Hezekiah the Judahite, 19who did not submit to my yoke: forty-six of his strong, walled cities, as well as 20the small towns in their area,

From the point of entry we are given NO details of his path to conquer 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages WITHIN the kingdom of JUDAH



Isaiah 10:28-32 doesn't mention how the attacker enters the kingdom of Judah. Aiath is not at the edge of the border, thus it is not impossible for Sennacherib's army to have traveled east to Aith and descended south. However, this cannot be proven as there are no details of the path sennacherib's took to conquer 46 foritified cities WITHIN the kingdom of Judah. All we know is that he did conquer all/46 fortified cities and un numbered villages within the kingdom of Judah.



My argument is that Sennacherib entered Judah from the northwest border after ekron, directly west of Jerusalem. From there we have no Idea which path he took to conquer all/46 fortified cities and un numbered villages.

My argument is that you cannot state it as FACT that Sennacherib's army never went through the cities listed in Isaiah 10:28-32. You may believe your evidence points to your opinion, but it is inappropriate to state it is a fact based on the current evidence we have.



Outside of Isaiah 10, there is zero biblical evidence of the path that Sennacherib took to conquer all of the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah. THere is zero secular evidence of the path Sennacherib took to conquer the 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages of Hezakiah's kingdom. THis has been my point the whole time. It cannot be proven, it is not known FACT. So to say it is a fact that Sennacherib never went through the cities mentioned in Isaiah 10:28-32 is false.

Do you have sources for your archaeological argument?



and your argument that all requires a qualifier to be absolute is false, as there are many scriptures where all does not have a qualifier and is still absolute. My argument is simply how do we determine whether all is absolute or not without the presence of a qualifier. I argued context and specificity using scripture passages to back up my argument. What is your argument?

You appear to be correct about Sennacherib (at least most likely) entering Judea along the northwest border instead of the southwest border, as I had said. But we know from scripture that he went to Lachish before he sent his troops to Jerusalem, and while his troops were there, he moved to Libnah. This most certainly makes it absolutely ridiculous to assume that before he went to Jerusalem he went north to Aiath and then from there proceeded south to Jerusalem, stopping at Michmash, Geba, and Nob. This theory not only lacke even the slightest historical basis, it is totally unreasonable.

You would be hard pressed for any printed source for a claim that nothing has ever been found, anywhere. My source for my archeologiccal argument was a personal interview with Dr Ibrim E'phal, the head of the Department of Antiquities at the Hebrew University in Jerusalam, whom a curator at the Oriental Institute in Chicago personally told me was "the world's leading authority on the archeology of the Holy Land."

I personally said to him that my review of the literature had left me with the impression that there was extensive archeological evidence of the Assyrian presence in southern Judea. But that nothing had been found in that portion of the ancient kingdom of Judea that is north of Jerusalem. He immediately answered, with great emphasis, "That's EXACTLY right!"

And again the secular historians, who have no horse in this race, are decided in declaring that Sennacherib simply did not follow the route defined in Isaiah 10:28-32. And the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls, who would have known their own history, clearly said that Isaiah 10:28-32 refers to a time in their own distant future.

So your claim that my "theory cannot be proven as fact based on current evidence" is simply incorrect. What I have proved is that a very significant amount of evidence clearly shows that Sennacherib did not invade Judea by following this path.
 
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claninja

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In the interpretation you place upon this passage, you are ignoring the explanation that the Holy Spirit Himself gave of what He meant. For in verses 6 through 12 He gave two examples to show what He meant. and both of those examples were of Himself choosing some, but not all, of the physical seed of Abraham to be counted as his seed. But there is not even the slightest suggestion of replacing the physical seed of Abraham with a "spiritual" seed that was not a part of his physical seed. That concept is totally absent from this entire passage.

Christ alone is the physical seed. He is the son of Abraham, the son David, from the tribe of Judah. No one is replacing the physical seed.
Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

And just as a man and wife are one flesh and one body, so to are Christ and the church
Ephesians 5:31-32 or this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

Thus, those who belong to Christ are abraham's seed (noun, singular), because they are of one body with Christ as the head
Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Regardless if they are Jew or Gentile
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So how do we reconcile God, throughout the ages, always keeping a remnant to himself while destroying the majority of Israel, with God saving all of israel?......

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea,only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 11:1-5 I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”a ? And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

Simple, all of Israel is not Israel.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

It is Christ who is the physical seed to inherit the promises of God, and thus all of those in Christ are all of Israel, and God saves all who belong to his son.
 
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Biblewriter

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Isaiah 10:22
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


So the Holy Spirit, Isaiah, and Paul were wrong?

No, they were exactly right. But the scriptures I have already quoted clearly state that, at the time these promises are fulfilled, THAT remnant will be the sum total of all the Israelites that have survived the time of trouble and the following time of direct judgment from God Himself.
 
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keras

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No, they were exactly right. But the scriptures I have already quoted clearly state that, at the time these promises are fulfilled, THAT remnant will be the sum total of all the Israelites that have survived the time of trouble and the following time of direct judgment from God Himself.
But you don't seem to understand that an Israelite of God is an Overcomer, a Victorious person for God.
We see them in each of the seven Church's of Revelation and it is those people who will receive all the Promises of God to His faithful people. Made up of Jew and Gentile alike, but from prophesies such as: Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7and Romans 9:26, that the majority of the Israel of God will be non Jews.
They will all join up and go to live in Zion, Ezekiel 37, Jeremiah 50:4-5
 
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jgr

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No, they were exactly right. But the scriptures I have already quoted clearly state that, at the time these promises are fulfilled, THAT remnant will be the sum total of all the Israelites that have survived the time of trouble and the following time of direct judgment from God Himself.

Here is Paul's specific definition and description of the remnant:
Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is no definition or description of the remnant, here or anywhere else, as the "sum total of all the Israelites that have survived the time of trouble".

We know who the "elect(ion)" are. They are those of faith and obedience, who are saved by grace.

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
 
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jgr

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There is not even one scripture, anywhere in the entire Bible, that defines anyone who is not Israelite by birth as an Israelite.

You missed this.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
 
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Biblewriter

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Here is Paul's specific definition and description of the remnant:
Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is no definition or description of the remnant, here or anywhere else, as the "sum total of all the Israelites that have survived the time of trouble".

We know who the "elect(ion)" are. They are those of faith and obedience, who are saved by grace.

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
That remnant is clearly defined in the scriptures I have already quoted. They clearly state that all of Israel that survives the time of trouble and the following judgment, will be repent and turn back to the Lord with all their hearts. This is clearly and explicitly stated.
 
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Biblewriter

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You missed this.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
That does not say that the stranger becomes an Israelite.
 
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jgr

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That remnant is clearly defined in the scriptures I have already quoted. They clearly state that all of Israel that survives the time of trouble and the following judgment, will be repent and turn back to the Lord with all their hearts. This is clearly and explicitly stated.

Then you should have no problem citing Scripture which defines the "remnant" thus (and in the process disproves Paul's definition of "remnant").

Good luck.
 
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