Approaches to Eschatology

Biblewriter

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There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

All the various eschatological "isms" except one fall into the first choice. That is, for them to even appear to be rational, it is necessary to begin with an assumption that the many prophetic utterances in the Bible do not actually mean what they say. This takes in Preterism, Historicism, Covenant Theology, and Idealism. All of these deal with the various prophecies in the Bible in different ways. But all of them start with an assumption that they do not really mean what they actually say.

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.
 

Douggg

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There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

All the various eschatological "isms" except one fall into the first choice. That is, for them to even appear to be rational, it is necessary to begin with an assumption that the many prophetic utterances in the Bible do not actually mean what they say. This takes in Preterism, Historicism, Covenant Theology, and Idealism. All of these deal with the various prophecies in the Bible in different ways. But all of them start with an assumption that they do not really mean what they actually say.

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.
Hi James, why is dispensationalism necessary?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

All the various eschatological "isms" except one fall into the first choice. That is, for them to even appear to be rational, it is necessary to begin with an assumption that the many prophetic utterances in the Bible do not actually mean what they say. This takes in Preterism, Historicism, Covenant Theology, and Idealism. All of these deal with the various prophecies in the Bible in different ways. But all of them start with an assumption that they do not really mean what they actually say.

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.
Which is the one eschatological view most in error unfortunately.
 
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jgr

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The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.

Good.

Then dispensationalism actually believes what this actually says.

Genesis 12
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

All the various eschatological "isms" except one fall into the first choice. That is, for them to even appear to be rational, it is necessary to begin with an assumption that the many prophetic utterances in the Bible do not actually mean what they say. This takes in Preterism, Historicism, Covenant Theology, and Idealism. All of these deal with the various prophecies in the Bible in different ways. But all of them start with an assumption that they do not really mean what they actually say.

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.
If dispensationalism was wrong you would think that none of the literal expected scenario would come to pass or line up in the order that it is expected to pass. The return of Israel as a nation is one core idea that until 1948 there was perhaps evidence that God was done with Israel. Perhaps He did cast them off as some suggest and replace them with the church. But Israel is now a nation and the next events require
Good.

Then dispensationalism actually believes what this actually says.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Hi Doug if you go back to that promise to Abraham Gal is referring to in your seed all the nations would be blessed. This is a separate promise to the promise that Abraham would be father of a great nation and his descendants would inherit the promised land as a permanent possession. The genealogy of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent is followed to Abraham and indeed Jesus is this seed. The promise to the nation Abraham would father is reaffirmed and has many future prophecies to go. It is just like the story of Joseph and Jesus will reveal himself to Israel at the 2nd coming and indeed Israel will be born again. It is not the church in Eze 36, Isaiah 61 or Zech 14 we see but national Israel being saved at the end of the tirbulation and transformed to inherit the millennium as true believers that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God and Christ the savior and king.
 
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mark kennedy

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I abandoned dispensationalism long ago, just never felt the need to embrace it. I toyed with covenant theology for a while but ultimately found it pedantic. I approach the prophetic oracles and predictions as historical narrative, even when it's predictive of the coming tribulation period.
 
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keras

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Belief in what the Bible tells us, does not require a person to be any 'ism'.
Just faith and trust in God and the acceptance of the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus, is needed.
The return of Israel as a nation is one core idea that until 1948 there was perhaps evidence that God was done with Israel. Perhaps He did cast them off as some suggest and replace them with the church.
That the Jews are no longer God's chosen, is plainly stated in the Bible. Not only did they reject and kill Jesus, but they cursed themselves as well. The Jewish State of Israel has been helped by God; for His own purposes, but prophecy plainly says their demise, other than a remnant, will soon happen.

God's faithful people are now every individual born again Christian, THEY are the inheritors of the Promises of God and will be the people God wants in the holy Land.
John sees them there, Revelation 7:9-14, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has cleared and cleansed the Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
 
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jgr

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If dispensationalism was wrong you would think that none of the literal expected scenario would come to pass or line up in the order that it is expected to pass. The return of Israel as a nation is one core idea that until 1948 there was perhaps evidence that God was done with Israel. Perhaps He did cast them off as some suggest and replace them with the church. But Israel is now a nation and the next events require

Hi Doug if you go back to that promise to Abraham Gal is referring to in your seed all the nations would be blessed. This is a separate promise to the promise that Abraham would be father of a great nation and his descendants would inherit the promised land as a permanent possession. The genealogy of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent is followed to Abraham and indeed Jesus is this seed. The promise to the nation Abraham would father is reaffirmed and has many future prophecies to go. It is just like the story of Joseph and Jesus will reveal himself to Israel at the 2nd coming and indeed Israel will be born again. It is not the church in Eze 36, Isaiah 61 or Zech 14 we see but national Israel being saved at the end of the tirbulation and transformed to inherit the millennium as true believers that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God and Christ the savior and king.

There are no distinctions or exceptions. Christ is the sole and exclusive heir of all of the promises:

2 Corinthians 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
 
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Biblewriter

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Hi James, why is dispensationalism necessary?
Why is any "ism" necessary? That is nothing but a label pasted on a set of beliefs. Men use these labels as shorthand for referring to a number of separate beliefs that normally appear together.

But why Dispensationalism? because it is nothing but shorthand for simply believing that in the past, God has repeatedly changed the way He relates to mankind, as is clearly shown in the scriptures, and that in the future He will do so again, as is also clearly shown in the scriptures.

Dispensationalism is also shorthand for simply believing that the explicitly stated pronouncements of events that were to take place in the future meant exactly what they said. And this is where Dispensationalism differs from all the other "isms" of eschatology. For all the other systems of interpretation are based on rank assumptions that (at least most of) the explicit promises of Bible prophecy had a meaning that was significantly different from the words in which they were stated.
 
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Biblewriter

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Good.

Then dispensationalism actually believes what this actually says.

Genesis 12
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Of course we believe the scriptures you quoted, even as we believe everything else the Bible teaches. What we reject is the interpretative system you build upon these simple statements.

You are using a scriptural reference to some of the promises of Bible prophecy, and applying that reference to other promises of Bible prophecy.
 
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Biblewriter

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Belief in what the Bible tells us, does not require a person to be any 'ism'.
Just faith and trust in God and the acceptance of the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus, is needed.

That the Jews are no longer God's chosen, is plainly stated in the Bible. Not only did they reject and kill Jesus, but they cursed themselves as well. The Jewish State of Israel has been helped by God; for His own purposes, but prophecy plainly says their demise, other than a remnant, will soon happen.

God's faithful people are now every individual born again Christian, THEY are the inheritors of the Promises of God and will be the people God wants in the holy Land.
John sees them there, Revelation 7:9-14, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has cleared and cleansed the Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. 10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' Hosea 1:8-10
 
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Biblewriter

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There are no distinctions or exceptions. Christ is the sole and exclusive heir of all of the promises:

2 Corinthians 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
You are using your chosen interpretation of the results of a few statements made by God, (none of which, incidentally, actually say what you chose to interpret them to mean) as an excuse to disbelieve a far greater number of explicit statements made by the same God in clear, plan, language.

In so doing, you are placing more significance upon your powers of interpretation than upon the clear, plain, statements of God. And the fact that many others chose to interpret these passages the same way you do is meaningless.


"let God be true but every man a liar." Romans 3:4
 
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Biblewriter

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There are no distinctions or exceptions. Christ is the sole and exclusive heir of all of the promises:

2 Corinthians 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The conclusion you stated does not flow from the scriptures you quoted.

All the promises are in Christ, but not all of them are to Him.

And Christ is indeed the heir of all things, but that does not negate the promises He made to give some of those things to the descendants of specific ancient people.

There are not only promises to the descendants of Abraham, but to the descendants of Isaac, Jacob, and each of Jacob's twelve sons, as well as to the descendants of Aaron, Zadok, David, and several other individuals. And other promises were made to various cities, including Jerusalem and Samaria, as well as to various lands, including Israel, Egypt, and Assyria.

When you deny that these promises will indeed be kept you are saying that the Bible is not true.
 
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Douggg

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But why Dispensationalism? because it is nothing but shorthand for simply believing that in the past, God has repeatedly changed the way He relates to mankind, as is clearly shown in the scriptures, and that in the future He will do so again, as is also clearly shown in the scriptures.
This is where Dispensationalism branched off from futurism.
 
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claninja

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There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

All the various eschatological "isms" except one fall into the first choice. That is, for them to even appear to be rational, it is necessary to begin with an assumption that the many prophetic utterances in the Bible do not actually mean what they say. This takes in Preterism, Historicism, Covenant Theology, and Idealism. All of these deal with the various prophecies in the Bible in different ways. But all of them start with an assumption that they do not really mean what they actually say.

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Dispensationalists, at least those I have encountered, don't believe the prophecies of revelation were near or soon to take place. They place them instead 2000+ years later, which would be the opposite of "for the time is near".


Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
 
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Biblewriter

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This is where Dispensationalism branched off from futurism.
Actually, this was taught, and clearly taught, in some of the very oldest Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. And continued to be taught at least up to the fifth century.
 
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Biblewriter

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I don't think this is necessarily true. Dispensationalists, at least those I have encountered, don't believe the prophecies of revelation were near or soon to take place. They place them instead 2000+ years later, which would be the opposite of "for the time is near".


Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

This is as seen in your time frame.

God'a own answer to your objection is:

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:1-9

So, from God's time frame, it has only been a couple of days since He said these things. And this is not what I say. It is what He said.
 
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jgr

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And Christ is indeed the heir of all things, but

You insist on rejecting God's explicit declaration that His Son is the sole and exclusive Heir, and attempting to substitute a disinherited dead decaying carcass.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.


Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious prophetic output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

Consequently, not even Christ Himself is permitted to replace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism believes it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, "evil", "heretical", and various other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it.

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

Jesus declares Himself to be the Fulfillment of all things concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Other Scriptures confirm His declaration, and further declare Him as Heir of all things.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:
Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all

Notice that Israel is conspicuous by its absence in the foregoing declarations.

The reason: It's not about Israel at all.

It's all about Him.
 
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claninja

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This is as seen in your time frame.

God'a own answer to your objection is:

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:1-9

So, from God's time frame, it has only been a couple of days since He said these things. And this is not what I say. It is what He said.

Right. Which is exactly my point. You don't take "near" or "soon" to mean "near" or "soon", even though that's what the words mean, but interpret it to mean something different: 2000+ years because God doesn't live in time based on another Bible verse.

How is this different then what the preterists, historicists, etc... do?


I could use the same argument. the 1000 year millennial reign doesn't really 1000 years, it means 1 day based on 2 peter 3. the 1000 years is based on God's time frame, not our time frame.
 
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