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Featured Approaches to Eschatology

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus Supporter

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    Not so. It's all about interpretation. Even Dispensationalists interpret figuratively and allegorically when needed.
     
  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The chosen are the elect. And they do not become elect after they have been faithful and obedient, but when God chooses them.

    He has plainly declared that He will do as He did with the Apostle Paul, take resolute enemies and transform them into faithful and obedient persons.
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    All the other systems of interpretation cannot even possibly be maintained without assuming that most of the prophecies in the Bible simply do not mean what they explicitly say.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dispensationally, in Zechariah 12:10, the nation repents and receives salvation, in its entirety.

    Dispensationally, in Zechariah 13:8, two thirds are slain.

    Zechariah 12 precedes Zechariah 13. Therefore those who are slain have already received salvation.

    That includes Judas, Caiaphas, et al ("...they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...").

    Dispensationally, we'll see 'em in heaven.
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is nothing short of nonsense. It is not only a willful wresting of what Dispensationalists teach, it is a willful wresting of scripture.
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is a plain description of dispensationalism's inevitably illogical conclusions.
     
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    It does not even approximately resemble anything ever taught by any Dispensationalist. Nor is it a logical conclusion from anything any Dispensationalist ever taught. It is 100% pure fiction.
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're invited to attempt to dispensationally disprove it.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God chose Saul in the Old Testament. He began as God's elect. But he eventually responded with unfaithfulness and disobedience, and ultimately experienced a tragic end.

    God chose Saul in the New Testament. He began as God's elect. He responded with continuing faith and obedience, and ultimately experienced a triumphant end.

    Which Saul finished as elect, and why?
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I agree. We know this from scripture.

    But as far as the path he took to conquer the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah, we do not know. From biblical records all we have is that he conquered all the cities of the kingdom of Judah. From secular record all we have is that he conquered 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages of Hezekiah's kingdom. We are not given the details of the path.

    It's ridiculous that Sennacherib split up his armies to conquer the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah? I disagree, as we see him doing that with Jerusalem, Lachish, and Libnah.

    But you are correct that this is a theory. I do not claim that it is a fact. It cannot be proven 100%, as there are no secular or biblical accounts that detail the path taken by Sennacherib to conquer all/46 fortified cities and un numbered villages WITHIN the kingdom of Judah

    Evidence based on written histories:

    1.) Sennacherib's account of conquering 46 cities and un numbered villages in Hezekiah's kingdom
    2.) All (whether absolute or not) the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah from the Bible
    3.) Josephus' account of Sennacherib taking the cities in the tribe of Judah AND BENJAMIN.

    Based on this evidence, I do not find it unreasonable that Sennacherib sent armies over to Aiath, Ramah, Geba, stopping at Nob, etc.....

    I absolutely agree

    Does he have any books on the archeological presence of Assyria in Judah? The only evidence, at least that I have seen or read about, shows Sennacherib at Lachish and Jerusalem. There doesn't seem to be much more archeological evidence for cities outside of those 2.

    That's fine, everyone is entitled to make an educated guess based on available evidence. BUT that does not make it a fact, for history does not currently detail the path that sennacherib's army took WITHIN the kingdom of Judah.

    From what I have read about the commentaries of the Qumran, the belief was that the OT prophets prophesied in a code that could only be understood when the teacher of righteous came on the scene to interpret the prophecy. The language was in context for the author's present situation, but the meaning was for the future, end times. This is applied to most if not all OT prophecies about oppressing gentile nations. Assyria, Gog, Babylon, etc... are believed to mostly referred to as the Kittim, the future oppressing gentile power, in these commentaries.

    For example, Habakkuk is using language in the context of his own time about the coming of the Babylonian empire, but the commentaries from the Qumran on Habakkuk state that this is actually about the kittim, and not babylon.
    Habakkuk 1:6 For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own.

    My point is, is that even if they knew the history, they wouldn't apply it to author's time, but to the future end times gentile world power.

    What you cannot prove is that Sennacherib did not send his armies into cities of the tribe of Benjamin after entering the kingdom of Judah. You are absolutely entitled to believe that evidence supports your opinion, just as everyone else on this forum, but that doesn't make it a fact.
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, it is not used in the OT.

    It's used in 4 verses in the NT. And it's not associated with 1 man, but anyone who denies the Father and son and the coming of Christ in the flesh. Thus, there could be no Antichrist prior to the coming of Christ in the flesh.


    1 John 2:22 is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son

    1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

    1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.

    2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, refusing to confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist

    Assyria is no longer an empire, nor has it been for the last couple thousand years. Assyria was long gone before Christ came in the flesh. Therefore how can the antichrist come from an empire that doesn't exist?

    I don't necessarily disagree with you. For example, Micah 5:

    Micah 5:2 was fulfilled when Jesus was born in Bethlehem

    Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel

    Matthew 2:5-6 In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah,
    for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of My people Israel

    And according to the author of Hebrews, Jesus appeared at the end of the ages. So yes, I would agree that parts of Micah 5 are in regards to the end of the ages.
    Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

    Assyria is not mentioned in the first 4 verses of Isaiah 10

    Jesus mentions it too:
    Luke 19:44 They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”



    What we see here is God using Assyria as a weapon to punish nations

    Isaiah 10:5-6 Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him,

    Notice what Assyria says:
    Isaiah 10:8 for he says:

    "I have done" is qal perfect: meaning it is a completed action. "do" is qal imperfect: meaning its action is not yet complete.
    Isaiah 10:11 and as I have done to Samaria and its idols, will I not also do to Jerusalem and her idols?”

    So What Assyria had done (completed action) to Samaria, they were going to do (non completed action) to Jerusalem.
    2 kings 17:6 In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria, and he carried the Israelites away to Assyria and placed them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.

    So I would argue this is about the Assyrian empire already having conquered Samaria and attempting to conquer Jerusalem in Isaiah's day.


    The angel of the Lord killed 185,000 Assyrians causing them to depart.
    2 kings 19:35-36 And that night the angel of the Lord went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies. Then Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and went home and lived at Nineveh

    The Assyrian army was destroyed by the angel of the Lord, not human hands.

    Those in zion (Jerusalem) were not to be afraid when Assyria attacked them.

    Isaiah 10:24 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “O my people, who dwell in Zion, be not afraid of Assyria when he shall strike with the rod and lift up his staff against you as the Egyptians did.

    Isaiah 37:5 When the servants of King Hezekiah came to Isaiah, 6Isaiah said to them, “Say to your master, ‘Thus says the Lord: Do not be afraid because of the words that you have heard, with which the young men of the king of Assyria have reviled me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  12. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    There is zero reason to disprove false claims about what we never even so much as suggested. But the scriptures very explicitly say that this promised universal repentance will apply to those that have survived the coming time.

    “ ‘And it shall come to pass in all the land,’
    Says the LORD,
    ‘That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
    But one-third shall be left in it:
    I will bring the one-third through the fire,
    Will refine them as silver is refined,
    And test them as gold is tested.
    They will call on My name,
    And I will answer them.
    I will say, “This is My people”;
    And each one will say, “The LORD is my God.” ’ ”
    (Zechariah 13:8-9)

    “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12:10-14)

    “And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning,” (Isaiah 4:3-4)

    So the Holy Spirit has made it very clear that, after a time of great trouble, He will finally bring absolutely all of “the house of Israel” back to their ancient homeland, and will cause (also absolutely) all of them that are still living to turn back to Himself “with their whole heart,” with the result that “they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.”

    This is not a "dispensational" understanding. It is what God said.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  14. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    God chose the first Saul to be a king, not for salvation. God chose the second Saul for salvation.

    But I am not going to get into an argument with you on election. I believe in it and you do not. end of story.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is nowhere to be seen in the passages.

    What is seen is "...they will look on Me whom they pierced."

    That includes Judas and Caiaphas.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So the first Saul was a chosen elect, but never saved?

    You believe a hollowed racialized caricature of the Scriptural election which characterizes every true believer in Christ. (Ephesians 1:4)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You need to learn to read. It is explicitly stated in the passages I just quoted.

    This is nothing less than willful wresting of the scriptures, in a vain attempt to justify refusing to believe what God has explicitly stated. And by willful wresting, I mean making an argument that you are perfectly aware is twisting scripture to mean something entirely different from what God meant.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I quoted verbatim what God said.

    Isn't that what He meant?
     
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Jer 46:21
    Also her hired men in the midst of her are like calves of the stall; for they also are turned back, they are fled away together, they did not stand:
    for the day of their calamity is come upon them, the time of their visitation.
    Hos 9:7
    The days of visitation are come
    , the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the man that hath the spirit is mad, for the abundance of thine iniquity, and because the enmity is great.

    Luke uses "visitation" in the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse


    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee, and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not thou knew the time of Thy visitation.


    Isaiah 61:2
    To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
    And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohim, To comfort all mourners.

    Luke 4:
    17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
    21 and He began by saying,
    “Today this Scripture<1124 is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

    Luke 21:

    22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written

    Reve 14:8
    And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
    the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".





    .
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Where does scripture teach these are the same individual and are properly, Biblically referred to as "The Antichrist"??

    Scripture explicitly teaches that THE antichrist IS a Spirit that affected MANY. (1 John 4:3)

    Why would you interpret that verse to mean something it absolutely does not say?

    And John then CONFIRMS that "THE Antichrist", the one that they had heard was coming, was:
    a)Already there, proving to John that the LAST HOUR had arrived. (1 John 2:18)
    b) a SPIRIT affecting many (1 John 4:3)
     
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