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Featured Approaches to Eschatology

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Bab2, you are in denial, my friend.
     
  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    BABerean2, you have "jumped the shark" in regard to 1 John 2:22-23. This has nothing to do with whether or not anyone is a Jew or a gentile.

    The end time scenario presented in the prophetic scriptures opens with Judah (the Jews) in her ancient homeland. This is why students of Bible prophecy have always known that they would return to their land.

    But those who have really studied these scriptures also know that, although the scenario opens with them in the land, it also shows them there in a state of unbelief and of rebellion against their God.

    And this is exactly what we see today. The Jews are indeed finally back in their ancient homeland, after having been expelled for nearly two thousand years. But they are there in a state of rebellion and unbelief.

    This, contrary to many allegations, is not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy as such. For there is not even one prophecy, anywhere in the entire Bible, about an end time return of Judah to her land. The only prophecy that spoke of a return of Judah was specifically and explicitly speaking of their ancient return from Babylon.

    Without a single exception, ALL the end time prophecies about the return say Israel, not Judah. And in Bible prophecy, these are not synonyms.

    In the days of Rehoboam, the son of the great Solomon, the ancient nation of Israel was divided into two kingdoms. After that division, the northern
    kingdom was called Ephraim and the southern kingdom was called Judah. But as the northern kingdom included all but two of the twelve tribes, it was also often called Israel. But the southern kingdom was never called Israel.

    So, throughout the historical books after the days of Rehoboam, the name Israel ALWAYS meant either the northern kingdom or the entire twelve tribes. But it NEVER meant the southern kingdom. And this clear distinction was carried on throughout the prophetic books of the Old Testament.

    This realization clarifies many end time prophecies in the Bible.

    Any prophecy that speaks only of Judah is speaking of times before the rest of that ancient nation is brought back to the land. And Isaiah 66 clearly shows that this will not happen until after Messiah returns.

    But any prophecy that speaks only of Ephraim, or of both Ephraim and Judah, or of Judah and Israel, or only of Israel, all speak of a time after Messiah has brought the rest of that ancient nation back to their land. And thus all of these prophecies speak of times after Messiah has returned.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    .
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    .
     
  5. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    What Adam could do before the fall is totally different from what we can do , as he was innocent and had real free will before the Fall, unlike us, who are enslaved to the sin nature!
    And you really think Calvinists see God as being the main one causing rapes of young girls?
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Some Calvinists make that claim about rape, but not me.

    Was God less sovereign before the fall, because He allowed Adam to have free will?


    .
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Does that include Gentiles who have converted to Judaism?
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    It is true that God has helped the Jews, to win their wars, etc, but they never acknowledge this and they face destruction, as many prophesies say. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 6:11-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27
    It is all part of God's Plan, to have a visible entity, calling themselves 'Israel', while He works with the real Israel of God, namely all the faithful Christians.

    Its time for you, Douggg and all who have been fooled by the false Israel, to realize that ethnicity has nothing to do with Salvation. No one will be saved, unless they believe in God and accept Jesus.
    The belief of a redeemed Jewish nation, is a seriously wrong teaching and a contradiction of the Bible.
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Actually the Bible explicitly says that absolutely all of them that survive the coming time of trouble, and the direct judgment of God immediately following that time, will be saved. But they will be saved only by trusting in Jesus. Then, at that time, they will all know Him, "from the least to the greatest." (Jeremiah 31:34)

    This is only one of the many places in scripture where Our God has promised that absolutely all of this rebellious and ancient nation will eventually be brought into His blessing. For in Ezekiel the Lord tells the “mountains of Israel,” along with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around,” that “I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings.” (Ezekiel 36:4.10-11) In this passage, the Hebrew word “kol,” which literally translates as “all,” is repeated to stress that the Lord’s meaning is absolutely all of “the house of Israel.”

    In the New Testament, Romans 11:26 says that “all Israel will be saved,” explaining two verses later that “Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:28-29) and Jeremiah 24:6-7 says, “For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land; I will build them and not pull them down, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” And this explains both how “they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” and “all Israel will be saved.” For God Himself has declared that at the promised time “they shall return to Me with their whole heart."
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Like most Dispensationalists, you have misquoted the text to make your doctrine work.
    You left out one very important little word in Romans 11:26.


    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    (The Greek word "houto" translated to "so", is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing.)

    Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (What is the covenant that took away sin found in Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.)

    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    (There are two different groups of "they" in this verse. There are "they" which rejected the Gospel, and there is a group of "they", which are the election who accepted the Gospel.)


    Verse 26 refers back to verses 23 and 24, which are speaking of those who come to faith and are grafted back into the tree.
    And in this way all of Israel, who is the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, will be saved.

    .
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Two Israels.

    Romans 9
    6
    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Of Israel:
    Not all Israel
    The children of the flesh
    Not the children of God
    Not the children of the promise
    Not counted for the seed

    All Israel:
    Not the children of the flesh
    The children of God
    The children of the promise
    Counted for the seed

    Romans 11
    26
    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Only one Israel shall be saved.

    All Israel.

    The faithful obedient elect beloved foreknown remnant of Romans 11.



    The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ: His Church.

    Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

    Romans 12:6
    Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

    1 Corinthians 12:1
    Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

    1 Corinthians 12:4
    Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 12:9
    To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    1 Corinthians 12:28
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    1 Corinthians 14:12
    Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

    God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
    They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
    To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


    To whom is God's calling directed?

    1 Corinthians 1:26
    For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

    1 Corinthians 7:20
    Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

    Ephesians 1:18
    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

    Ephesians 4:4
    There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    2 Thessalonians 1:11
    Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

    2 Timothy 1:9
    Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Hebrews 3:1
    Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    2 Peter 1:10
    Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


    God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
    It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
    To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.

    Under no conditions or circumstances can unbelievers, enemies of the gospel, ever be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  12. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Where you and most go wrong in your interpretation of God's Promises to His People, is in assuming the people of God now, are the same as the ones He originally chose.
    The NT makes it abundantly clear that this is no longer the case, the actual [or claimed] descendants of Abraham- Jacob-Judah, have lost that position. Matthew 21:33-43,
    the Parable of the landowner;....
    the Kingdom is given to the people who bear the proper fruit.

    However God does have a secret, the 10 Northern tribes still remain scattered among the nations and it is them mainly, who have accepted the Gospel. They will inherit the Land and God's Blessings in two ways, by descent and by their Christian faith.
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In saying that “the Greek word ‘houto’ translated to ‘so’, is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing,” you are punching at a straw man. I am not aware of even one person, dispensational or otherwise, who has ever claimed that this word indicates timing. Such an argument would not even be rational. For in this sentence, (or anywhere else, for that matter) this word obviously has absolutely nothing to do with timing.

    But in so concentrating on this one word, you are ignoring the rest of the statement made here by the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul. For this sentence indeed declares, and declares in very plain words, that “all Israel will be saved.” So the exact meaning of the word “so,” (“houtos” in this sentence, not houto,) is immaterial to the point I was making. For God Himself has declared, and declared in plain words, that “all Israel will be saved.”

    Nor is this even close to the only place where He said this. For in Jeremiah 31:33 He said “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD.” And again Isaiah 4:3 says, “And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem.” And again Zechariah 13:9 says, “They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’ ”

    So this does not come from lifting a few words out of their context, but is repeatedly taught in numerous scriptures.

    You want to pretend that this sentence only speaks of some Israelites being saved. But that is not what it says. And such a conclusion does violence to the entire context of the paragraph.

    You allege, without an atom of linguistic basis that “There are two different groups of ‘they’ in this verse. [verse 28] There are ‘they’ which rejected the Gospel, and there is a group of ‘they’, which are the election who accepted the Gospel.” This is simply wresting the message of the entire passage. And it completely ignores the very next words in this passage.

    For the Holy Spirit explained verse 28 by saying “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) This statement, in and by itself, plainly shows that the two places where we find the word “they” in verse 28 are referring to the same group, for what the Holy Spirit said was that, even though these people were enemies, yet they were beloved. And why? Because “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” God had made promises to their fathers, and He is here declaring, as He did in so many other places, that He will most certainly keep those promises.

    You and some others imagine that the nation of Israel has been permanently set aside. But God very explicitly declared that He would never do that.

    “Thus says the LORD,
    Who gives the sun for a light by day,
    The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
    Who disturbs the sea,
    And its waves roar
    (The LORD of hosts is His name):
    ‘If those ordinances depart
    From before Me, says the LORD,
    Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.’
    Thus says the LORD:
    ‘If heaven above can be measured,
    And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
    I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
    For all that they have done,’ says the LORD.”
    (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  14. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In the interpretation you place upon this passage, you are ignoring the explanation that the Holy Spirit Himself gave of what He meant. For in verses 6 through 12 He gave two examples to show what He meant. and both of those examples were of Himself choosing some, but not all, of the physical seed of Abraham to be counted as his seed. But there is not even the slightest suggestion of replacing the physical seed of Abraham with a "spiritual" seed that was not a part of his physical seed. That concept is totally absent from this entire passage.

    No teacher of repute among Dispensationalists would even think of disputing this statement. It is unquestionably both absolutely true and absolutely correct.

    But you are neglecting the fact that God Himself has plainly declared that He will eventually bring a the descendants of this rebellious people to repentance, saying, "Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart." (Jeremiah 24:7)

    And when God has done that, He will be able to righteously keep every one of the ancient promises He made to their fathers.
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    God will keep His promises, but those who call themselves Jews will not and cannot be the recipients.
    God's true, righteous people, His Israelites by faith, Galatians 3:26-29, are every born again Christian.

    By your categorical statements that ethnic Israel must be redeemed and all saved, you contradict the teachings of Jesus and in fact, of the whole Bible. Salvation is and always was available to all who will accept it. Your beliefs, Bible writer; oppose the over 20 prophesies that plainly tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah and only a remnant will be saved.
    Romans 9:27....is an undeniable statement, that totally refutes the idea that all of Jewish Israel will be saved.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Galatians 3
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    According to Galatians 3:28-29, the only seed of Abraham that God recognizes is Abraham's spiritual seed. Whether or not you are his physical seed is irrelevant (“There is neither Jew nor Greek...”).

    And Abraham's spiritual seed is exclusively those who are Christ's (Galatians 3:29), the children of the promise who are counted as that seed. (Romans 9:8; Galatians 4:28)

    There's no “replacement” involved. If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's spiritual seed. If you are not, then you are not.

    Couldn't be simpler.

    Good figs, and naughty/bad/evil figs:
    Jeremiah 24
    2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.
    3 Then said the Lord unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

    Good figs, those who “...return unto Me with their whole heart” in faith and obedience:
    Jeremiah 24
    7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

    Evil figs, those who rebel and disobey:
    Jeremiah 24
    8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:
    9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
    10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

    No free (fig) lunch without faith and obedience.

    The story of Israel, and the story of humankind.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Apparently, you have never heard Pastor John Hagee quote the verse.
    I have personally heard him say...


    "And then all of Israel will be saved."

    Others such as yourself and Dr. David Jeremiah leave out the word "so".

    All of you are guilty of corrupting the text, by either changing or leaving out words.

    The fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and in the verse below.


    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

    Thank God that we have the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God to reveal the truth about man-made doctrines, such as the Two Peoples of God doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.


    Beginning in Romans 11:1-5 Paul speaks of two different groups of Israelites.
    During the time of Elijah there were those who bowed down to Baal, and the remnant of 7,000 who remained faithful to God.
    Paul speaks of a "remnant"during his time in Romans 11:5. This agrees with the "remnant" in Romans 9:27.
    Apparently, you believe Paul changed his mind somewhere between chapter 9, and chapter 11.

    If you do not think there are two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11, you need to go back to verse 1 and read the chapter again.

    ...........................................


    Those who believe the modern State of Israel created by the godless United Nations during 1948 is a fulfillment of scripture, have fallen for one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.
    Read 1 John 2:22-23.
    The painful truth is found below.
    How many times does Lord Rothschild give the credit to God during his interview?





    We continue to see Orthodox Jews speaking on Christian television, in direct violation of the scripture found below.
    Many of those programs are sponsored by Dispensationalists.


    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
    2Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
    2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
    2Jn 1:11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.



    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In the first place, John Hagee is not a teacher of repute among Dispensationalists, and I intentionally worded my statement this way to exclude any claims he may or may not have made.

    But in the second place, when speaking of the time after Messiah has finally come, the words "and then all Israel will be saved" are both appropriate and accurate, unless they are being stated as a quotation of this verse. For this promised salvation of all Israel will take place after Messiah returns. So saying it will take place at that time is indeed correct.

    I have quoted numerous scriptures which explicitly state that this will happen, so any further dispute on that point is rank unbelief.
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    As before, you are still completely ignoring the fact that God has promised to eventually bring this nation to faith and obedience. As I have already quoted the scriptures that explicitly state this, I will not quote them again.

    But your explanation of the Good figs, and naughty/bad/evil figs is totally off base.

    You say: "Good figs, those who '...return unto Me with their whole heart' in faith and obedience:" "Evil figs, those who rebel and disobey:"

    But God Himself explicitly said:

    5 "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge those who are carried away captive from Judah, whom I have sent out of this place for their own good, into the land of the Chaldeans. Jeremiah 24:5

    8 'And as the bad figs which cannot be eaten, they are so bad'--surely thus says the LORD--'so will I give up Zedekiah the king of Judah, his princes, the residue of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt. Jeremiah 24:8

    So the good figs were not "those who return unto me with their whole heart," but "those who are carried away captive from Judah." And the evil figs are not "those who rebel and disobey," but in addition to Zedekiah and his princes, "the residue of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt."

    And the good figs were not selected because they would "return unto me with their whole heart." Rather the Lord promised to cause the good figs to "return unto me with their whole heart." That is what Jeremiah 24 teaches, in language so clear and plain that it is nothing short of unbelief to deny it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  20. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    The salvation of all Israel is CONDITIONAL my friend.

    "I magnify my ministry, IF by any means I MIGHT provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and MAY save SOME of them."
    "In this manner SHOULD all Israel be saved."
    "For God has committed them all to disobedience that he MIGHT have mercy upon all."

    Any further dispute on this point is rank unbelief.
     
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