Question about eternal damnation

[ClementofA]

"Every tree that does not bare good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire." Matt. 7:19

"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:21 ** Here it is plane as day, "not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven!"

Plane or plain? Neither. No scripture, including Mt.7:21, say anyone will never be saved. In fact all shall have life, righteousness & God "in" them (1 Cor.15:28; Rom.5:18-19, etc). God's purpose, according to His own words, is to save the world (Jn.3:17; cf. 4:42). He is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), so the world will be sinless.

In Jesus' earthly mortal ministry He was sent to none but the children of Israel (Mt.15:24), all of whom He shall save (Mt.1:21; 2:7), including those referred to in Mt.7:21:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, the Pharisees & any who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

BTW the book of Matthew is the first book of the NT, Revelation being the last. In the very first chapter of the first book of the NT, God declares the end from the beginning:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa.46:10)

According to a number of commentators the "kingdom of the heavens" (Mt.7:21) is associated with Christ's millennial age kingdom. So exclusion from this kingdom would
not mean a person will never be saved.

"The characteristic phrase is “the kingdom of the heavens”. This refers to Daniel's prophecy, “And in the days of these kings the God of the heavens shall set up a
kingdom which shall not be harmed for the eon, and the kingdom shall not be left to another people. It shall crush and terminate all these kingdoms.... (Dan.2:44)." (Concordant Commentary)

Rev.5:10 and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev.20:4c And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Exodus 19:6
And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."

Mt.7:21 Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the *one* doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

What is "that day" (Mt.7:22) referring to? Possibly "the kingdom of the heavens" (v.21) itself as the millennial (1000 year) age kingdom of Christ? Peter says 1000 years
(a millennium) is as a "day" to God (2 Pet.3:8) & also speaks of the "day of the age" (2 Pet.3:18):

Young's Literal Translation
2 Pet.3:18) and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him is the glory both now, and to the day of the age! Amen.

"And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say to them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ... Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:32-34, 41 ***The goats on the left are cursed - Jesus makes his final decision and it is obvious He wants nothing more to do with them.

Matthew 25 makes no mention of any "final decision" or that Jesus "wants nothing more to do with them". That is just adding opinions to the Word of God. Furthermore the translation you quoted is misleading & deceptive. More literal versions say:

Young's Literal Translation
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Concordant Literal Version
41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers

Rotherham
41 Then, will he say unto those also, on his left hand: Depart ye from me, accursed ones! Into the age-abiding fire, which hath been prepared for the adversary and his messengers

"... repent and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15 ** Repentance and belief is required to enter into His kingdom." Repentance is not offered after one dies!

Again you give your opinion, not the Word of God.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna (hell). Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in prison. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

"... all things are possible to him that believes." Mark 9:23 *** Evidently, according to Universalists, more possibilities are available after you are thrown into the lake of fire!

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna (hell). Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in prison. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[ClementofA]

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned." Mark 16:16

"the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark."

"In addition, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed. In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings. Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals." Should Mark 16:9-20 be in the Bible?

Young's Literal Translation
he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.

"He that believeth not shall be damned.—Better, shall be condemned. The Greek word does not necessarily imply the idea of irreversible endless condemnation which has come to be attached to the English one."

"Shall be damned (κατακριθήσεται)"

"A most unfortunate rendering. The word is a judicial term, and, as Dr. Morison truthfully says, "determines, by itself, nothing at all concerning the nature, degree, or extent of the penalty to be endured." See on the kindred noun, κρῖμα, judgment, rendered by A. V. damnation, 1 Corinthians 11:29. Rev., rightly, condemned."

Mark 16:16 Commentaries: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

While some will not be saved from the lake of fire, they will still obtain life, righteous & have God "in" them (1 Cor.15:22,28; Rom.5:18-19; etc). Mark 16:16 does not deny that all will eventually believe & always be with Love Omnipotent as His children He loves. So it fails as a "proof text" against Scriptural universalism.

"That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15, 16
*The requirement or qualification for eternal life is belief in Jesus. The gospel is not spread in Hades or in Hell. The words of life are not there for one to consume. Once you die your destiny is fixed.

Once again you add human opinions to the Scriptures & quote a misleading translation. A more literal honest bible version says:

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian life. (Jn. 3:16, Concordant Literal Version)

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

" Jesus answered and said to him. 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3 ** We are born again when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is no baptism of the dead. We have this life to believe. There is one life and one death and then the judgment. It is not one life, one death and then some more sanctification in Hell.

Once again you offer more human opinions instead of Scripture.

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[ClementofA]

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

What makes them "irrefutable"? Are they like an infallible Pope? Are they inspired of God like the Scriptures? Why even refer to them after you said this:

Irrelevant not scripture.

Then are also all your quotes re Jewish beliefs & opinions irrelevant? And your quotes of church fathers? And opinions of lexicons? And BDAG references to non scriptural usages of aionios? So you won't be quoting any of these ever again, since they are, as you say, "Irrelevant not scripture"?

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

The same word "aionion" is translated "everlasting" and "eternal." The punishment lasts as long as the life.

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

 

[ClementofA]

<B5>Have you reasoned thorough this? I agree that the first paragraph would in no sense be death. However, neither would a process of purification.
You see, in order for something to be a second death, it must be like the first one. If it's not, it's not the second one. We all know that the first death is a loss of life. Therefore the second one must also be a loss of life. It can't be a purification process of some sort.<B5>
But for the fact that the only place second death is mentioned is in Rev and scripture never says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LoF then they/it dies. The only activity mentioned in the LoF is three sentient beings; the devil, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LoF but they do not die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Nothing in these verses is like "the first death."
In Rev 19:20 the beast and the false prophet were thrown into the LoF 1000 years before the devil. Rev 20:2

Revelation 19:20
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:2
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

In Rev 20:14 death and hell are thrown into the LoF. Death is the point in time end of life. Death has no life of its own. It cannot literally die. Hell whether it is viewed as the grave or the place of punishment has no life of its own. It cannot literally die.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Although the LoF is called "the second death." Neither death nor hell can and have not died a first death, so they cannot die a second death. Nothing in this verse is like the first death.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.

More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

That last verse is post judgment, after all reprodates have been destroyed, after Hades and death itself ha e been destroyed. So of course in the new heaven and earth, every creature (and all animals as well have been changes to a harmonious, peaceful state) will be perfected since sin and evil are now banished.

In the new heavens & earth there will be no more sea (Rev.21:1). But in Rev.5:13 John includes those in the sea:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb into the eons of the eons.

John "heard" everyone worshiping the Lamb, including those in the sea. In the gospels Jesus sent some demons into pigs who then went into the sea & drowned (Mt.8:32; Mk.5:13; Lk.8:33). Humans have also drowned in the sea, both the wicked & just. John saw them all worshiping the Lamb. Likewise those "under the earth" in their graves and in Hades.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear friends: the passage regarding the lost sheep our Master is illustrating in His words of zao Life are so very powerful.

Let's take a look at desruction from our Father's viewpoint.

The plain wording for destruction is apollumi.

Perhaps it would be interesting to behold what apollumi in "plain wording" means?

https://www.logosapostolic.org/greek...stroy-ruin.htm

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he apollumi one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is apollumi, until he find it?

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also apollumi without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.."

"Do not labor for the meat which apollumi, but for that meat which endures to everlasting life..."

"But if your brother is grieved with your meat, now do you not walk charitably. Do not apollumi him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

"He who loves his life shall apollumi it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."

 

[Ronald]

Dear Ronald: Every knee bows IN/EN the Name of Jesus in all dimensions of the earth, the heavens & the underworld. Of course they are all saved, and more so, being reconciled in the mighty helkuo of the Unlimited One.

This identical polus "made sinners" in the first Adam, are the polus "made righteous" in the Last, every last broken wreck reconciled!

I understand your belief. Your interpretation is wrong!
Were you baptized by the Holy Spirit? You don't have to answer me, it's just a question for you. Is God dwelling in you and has He given you evidence of that?
It's interesting because all scripture is spiritually discerned. How you can disregard much of scripture and then pretend to understand and back it up with information outside scripture is disturbing. If you are just an educated layman who has studied scripture without the Holy Spirit's guidance, then you will not discern scriptures properly. It will be a superficial understanding without depth and lacking the crucial purpose of humanity, reconciliation to God. That all men will be reconciled to God is a wonderful thought - it's just not what the Bible claims. So again, you distort scripture to conform to your belief system and recklessly disregard the basics of Christianity that have been understood since Christ.
I remember those so called professors from the Jesus Seminar. They thought their academic study was sufficient. But they distorted the truth. "Liberal theologians" who want to take from the Bible what works for their lifestyle or what is politically correct and what they think conforms to their constructs of social evolution and belief system and discard or distort the rest.
Gay pastors and their congregations are an example of liberals who ignore the fundamental purpose of God's creation of man and woman and distort it. The passing of Gay Marriage was done by our leaders, people who would actually claim to be Christians (the president, congress and members of the Supreme Court)! What a travesty.
Then you have again the liberal minded who are pro-choice and supporters of partial-birth abortions as well and selling baby parts.
We've seen cults come out of Christianity. They didn't start out with evil intentions but went off on their own tangents. And of course those liberal minded people would say everyone goes to heaven because God is LOVE, God is GOOD and He wouldn't do anything like what the Bible actually says He will do: Judge, condemn and destroy in HIS WRATH during periods of time such as the FLOOD, The Great Tribulation and again after the Millennial Kingdom. Yes, to believe everyone gets saved you must ignore or distort loads of scripture.
David Koresh memorized the Bible and no one could argue with him because he had a command of scripture - but he did not have the Holy Spirit to guide him. So what happened, he married many women, young girls even, and if they had already been married, it didn't matter, he thought he was going to repopulate the earth after the GT and all women must forsake their husbands and have sex with him, the only pure seed.
He thought he was Christ! The rest of the men, most of them, reluctantly went along and believed him as well.
I think liberalism is one the most destructive forces on the planet. The idea that everyone will be saved also instills the idea that you can live however way you choose and still get into heaven. That is a from Satan himself. He sends tares into the flock to lead people of the path as he did with Adam and Eve. Lying and distorting truth: "Did God really say you must not eat from any tree of the Garden?" He planted a see of doubt into her mind. Then he followed with, "You will not surely die ... your eyes will be opened, you'll be like God, knowing good and evil." He set her up for the fall and of course that was his purpose.
My point is, Satan is the author of liberalism, eat of the tree, do anything you want and you'll be like God, and you'll get into heaven too -- no matter what!

 

[FineLinen]

I understand your belief. Your interpretation is wrong!

Dear Ronald: what you must do is show me what is wrong with my interpretation. When you can do that we will be making great success.

According to my view>>>>

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

From Him the all, through Him the all, for Him the all

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: Perhaps you can show poor old F.L. what the cherished purpose of the Most High is?

1. Is it do damn the vast, vast broken creatures of Adam1 to unending destruction?

2. Is it to make those "made sinners" in Adam1, "righteous" in the Last Adam?

3. Does "whole" equal some?

4. Is the restoration of the Last Adam complete in all dimensions of the heavens, the earth & the underworld?

5. Can you tell us the difference between "only" & "especially?

 

[Ronald]

You think Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures is like a Hitler who annihilates billions out of existence forever & infinitely for the finite momentary sins of a brief & fleeting lifetime of a few years or decades?

God is a God of Love but also a God of justice and sin needs to be judged IF NOT FORGIVEN. God draws all men to himself but men must be willing, they can resist - which is of course in opposition to 5-Point Calvinism. You must ask for forgiveness during this lifetime to receive it. It is a gift that you must receive. Countless people after many opportunities, invitations, the WORD delivered to them over and over again and still they reject and resist. Well, when you die, that's it, your chances are over.

You think His love expires about as quickly as a carton of milk. But God is a God of infinite and unconditional love. It is far greater than the vast universe He created.

If He doesn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

No, specifically God knows the expiration date of a soul. He knows if they will come or not before they are born. Evil came into this world so that we can understand what good is, appreciate God's attributes. But evil has a price when played. Sin destroys. Do think that Satan, the Father of Lies, who seeks to destroy, in reality destroys no one? I suppose all his schemes are just empty threats that amount to nothing. No, many are lost and for the sake of many to be saved. Our reality, what we understand about evil that leads to wars and destruction, is no different. Soldiers sacrifice their lives to save others. That is the ultimate sacrifice of love, to give one's life. But there is a cost of death, their is a battle in the heavens between angels and demons for souls -- make no mistake, many are lost.

Annihilating eternally does not respect human free will. Nor is it for the good of anyone, including the relatives & loved ones of those endlessly annihilated.

There is only one eternity, that is in the company of God, in His domain. I do not believe in any endless torment. God judges those proportionately according to their sin. It would absurd to think that a teenager who sinned for a decade or so should suffer any more than that. Reprobates do not come to Christ though. Beyond the grave in Hades, there is no grace available, nothing good to transform. Salvation is for today and that concept is echoed all through scripture. We are exhorted to seek God while we can, not to wait, for death comes unannounced sometimes and catches us unawares.

God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable

You do not know scripture. Judas was created for a purpose. Someone had to fulfill prophecy, to betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. Every person at that time played a part. The Pharisees who were against Jesus, the crowd that shouted, "Crucify Him!", and the disciples as well. A remnant believed and the rest did not. Jesus condemned the Pharisees did He not, "Who will save you from the Gehenna?" That was their concept of Hell, that's what He was referring to, judgment, in the last days.

God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever

17+ Verses that Support Predestination & The Doctrine of Election

God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever

You just claimed that man has a free will. You can't have it both ways. If man was not free to make decisions, especially concerning Christ, THEN WE WOULD DO EVERYTHING THAT GOD TOLD US TO DO -- WOULDN'T WE? Even after being born again, sin still dwells in the members of our flesh and we occasionally return to our old ways.
So what does the Parable of the Sower mean to you? This is Jesus' teaching of who gets into the kingdom of heaven and who doesn't. Of course you can distort the plain meaning as some do to make scripture symbolically mean anything they want. Jesus teaches us about the kingdom of heaven. The seed that produces fruit is planted in fertile soil. ALL OTHER SEED, DOES NOT PRODUCE FRUIT. SOME SEED IS IMMEDIATELY STOLEN BY THE DEVIL. SOME IS PLANTED IN ROCKY SOIL AND SOME IN SHALLOW SOIL.
We are saved by Grace through FAITH. One dies with faith or without it. Those without it do not acquire it after death.

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

He does save His sheep that way, but ask yourself this: Why isn't everyone saved and become a believer in this life. Why aren't all the unwilling souls made willing? Because people become callous to what is good. Like a person who is sensitive to others feelings, he has empathy and sympathy, he cares. But when he becomes callous to those feelings, he responds with apathy. When one sins all their lives, becomes wicked and selfish, never concerning themselves with the well being of others, they become callous and so when God draws this person, he doesn't hear His voice, he doesn't respond or he dismisses it as folly, nonsense, just as atheists do. Do you realize how many Darwinian Evolution led astray, away from God? Do you think Darwin will get to heaven? What of all the false religions? Jesus said He is the only way and the way to destruction is wide and the narrow path, only a few find.
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matt. 7:13, 14
Does that translate into all roads lead to heaven???

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

You just said, God does not force people into heaven. He gives man many opportunities to follow Him but man often chooses to go his own way. Read Romans 1, it states clearly that after a point, GOD LET'S THEM GO TO THEIR OWN DEMISE.
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ... for although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts... They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful, they invent ways of doing evil, they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless." Romans 1:18, 21, 22, 24 - 26, 29 -31.

God lets all those people have it their way, He let's them go! They made the choices, He doesn't persist to change their minds.

"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

Agreed, chance has no power or influence. He clearly identifies His own in scripture, His SHEEP. NOT ALL ARE HIS SHEEP. His sheep hear His voice when He calls, the goats do not!

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

You see, this traditional doctrine is where many get offended and unwound about. Me too! I don't believe Hell is eternal, it's temporal and will come to an end. God judges proportionately to the sins. But the ultimate sin is rejecting Jesus. After you die and are ushered into Hades, like the Rich Man, of course you would have a change of heart - Oops, I screwed up, I'm sorry, em ... I believe now! But what did Abraham say? Your state is fixed, He said no to all his pleas: to send Lazarus to give him water, to warn his brothers, etc. He said you had your chances, your life and made your choices - now it's too late, you've been judged.

 

[FineLinen]

God is a God of Love but also a God of justice and sin needs to be judged

Dear Ronald: There are no buts! The essence of God=

LOVE>>>SPIRIT>>>LIGHT>>>FIRE>>>PROPITIATION

Nowhere in Canon is God's essence described as He is justice. God is indeed just, perfectly just, & that justness flows from His essence!

Do not worry about sin being judged, one small excursion into His fire and light & love & propitiation will be enough to change the vilest of the vile!

 

[FineLinen]

He said you had your chances, your life and made your choices - now it's too late, you've been judged.

Dear Ronald: there are two words you must learn in relation to the God of glory.

#1 limited.

"You have limited the Holy One of Israel."

#2 Exceeding.

..."exceedingly abundantly above all we can ask or even think"

"My dear friend, clear your mind of can’t.” -Samuel Johnson-

 

[Der Alte]

Dear Ronald: There are no buts! The essence of God=LOVE>>>SPIRIT>>>LIGHT>>>FIRE>>>PROPITIATION

Saying all this does not make it so without scriptural support. And you don't have a single scripture which says this. It must be supported by a piece of this verse, a piece of that verse and a piece of another verse.

Nowhere in Canon is God's essence described as He is justice. God is indeed just, perfectly just, & that justness flows from His essence!

Flim-flammery. There does not need to be a verse which says "God is justice" for God to administer justice.

Deuternomy 33:21 And he provided the first part for himself, because there, in a portion of the lawgiver, was he seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel.
Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
Psalms 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Isaiah_9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God
Jeremiah 50:7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.​

Do not worry about sin being judged, one small excursion into His fire and light & love & propitiation will be enough to change the vilest of the vile!

There is not one single verse in the Bible which says this. In US prisons there is a 67% recidivism rate. Out of every 100 prisoners released, on average, 67 will return to prison. Prison does not make them model citizens. They don't accept responsibility for their criminal acts, they blame everybody else, the police, judges, lawyers, juries etc. And many times try to harm the ones they blame. How is that going to change when God throws them into His fire? Will they suddenly have warm fuzzies for God?

 

[FineLinen]

Agreed, chance has no power or influence. He clearly identifies His own in scripture, His SHEEP. NOT ALL ARE HIS SHEEP. His sheep hear His voice when He calls, the goats do not!

Dear Ronald: have you ever wondered why the Master of reconciliation is speaking of two CLEAN animals in this parable? Have you ever thought why (in the context of Romans 25), He is also speaking of ten virgins (not harlots or loose women)?? WHY??

And, Ronald, if His sheep hear His voice when He calls, why does a sheep dog exist, for companionship, perhaps?

Take 17

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.

Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25).

This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

 

[Der Alte]

Dear Ronald: have you ever wondered why the Master of reconciliation is speaking of two CLEAN animals in this parable? Have you ever thought why (in the context of Romans 25), He is also speaking of ten virgins (not harlots or loose women)?? WHY??
And, Ronald, if His sheep hear His voice when He calls, why does a sheep dog exist, for companionship, perhaps?
Take 17
You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks.
Why??
There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25).
This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.
This should be so easy for you!
According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.
The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=
1._____________________________________________________________?
2._____________________________________________________________?
3._____________________________________________________________?
4._____________________________________________________________?
5._____________________________________________________________?

Matt 25:46 does not exist in a vacuum. Jesus addressed the fate of the wicked many times. When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 ​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined below. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4 ​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs?
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Butch5]

did you ever think that it is speaking of death to our self life? we are to die daily that Christ might shine forth. It is not the man that dies but rather our old man that does.

That's not the second death. What you're talking about is Paul's use of a figure of speech. To die daily means to resist the old ways and live according to the new. The second death is not a figure of speech but a literal death.

 

[Butch5]

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone is annihilated forever? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, your translation is misleading, as the OP of this thread implies. A more literal honest version is:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Furthermore Rom 6 23 doesn't deny that everyone will eventually receive the gift of eonian life. It doesn't address the question of how many human beings will get this gift.
OTOH Scripture reveals that everyone will obtain "life" & be "constituted just":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

You're argument concerning slavery is a non sequitur, a fallacy. Concerning Romans 5, you're misunderstanding the passage. All mankind was redeemed, however, that doesn't mean all mankind will be saved.

 

[Pneuma3]

That's not the second death. What you're talking about is Paul's use of a figure of speech. To die daily means to resist the old ways and live according to the new. The second death is not a figure of speech but a literal death.

a literal death in a book full of mythos, ya right

 

[ClementofA]

In US prisons there is a 67% recidivism rate. Out of every 100 prisoners released, on average, 67 will return to prison. Prison does not make them model citizens. They don't accept responsibility for their criminal acts, they blame everybody else, the police, judges, lawyers, juries etc. And many times try to harm the ones they blame. How is that going to change when God throws them into His fire? Will they suddenly have warm fuzzies for God?

PAfter the unrepentant have been punished for a greater or lesser time will they be filled with warm fuzzies for the God who punished them?
The prison recidivism rate is 66+%. Many of those blame everyone but themselves, witnesses, judges, lawyers etc. even to the point of trying to harm them. So how do they change after God
has punished them?

The same way everyone changes. How did you change? How did serial killer, Christian murderer & Christian Inquisitionist (of both men & women), Saul, who became the Apostle Paul, change?

In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

...

You keep waffling on many things here DA. Everyone reading can see it.
If scripture is the word of God and those scriptures tell us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world who else but God is telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? Thus every verse I quoted is a quote from God.
So again I will ask you what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? <end>
No waffles I prefer pancakes. Do you believe that,

“the whole world is under the control of the evil one” 1 John 5:19
“Satan, who leads the whole world astray” Revelation 12:9
“The whole world … followed the beast” Revelation 13:3
“Diana …, whom all Asia and the world worships.” Acts of the apostles 19:27
Satan is “the god of this world.” 2 Corinthians 4:4

Are you now a Calvinist & you believe Jesus being the Savior of the world means only the lucky ones God determined to be the elect? Does Jn.1:29 mean by "world" only some? Do you believe in the limited atonement theory?

What we still do not have is any Bible writer directly quoting God or Jesus saying that all mankind good and bad, will be saved.

God or Jesus? God is Jesus. And His inspired Scriptures have made it clear all will be saved (Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

Early church opposition to endless hell

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism