Question about eternal damnation

[Ronald]

Dear Ronald: There is no "eternal hell" so at least you are in union with that spurious dogma.

What you fail to grasp (among an array of various aspects of the Holy) is the Lake of Fire radiates with theion rooted in Theos. Our God IS consuming fire and escaping Him is simply not possible!

God is the Source of the all, the sustaining Force of the all, the Goal of the all

According to your view, when God destroyed the entire planet with a flood and spared only 8 people to start over again, that was just a temporal punishment and all of those wicked people are waiting in Hades to receive a final bath in the lake of fire for a love cleansing in order to be presented to the Father WITHOUT EVER HAVING FAITH, KNOWIMG HIM, OR HAVING TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. In this strange lake of fire, apparently there are classes, bibles and teachers to educate these lost souls while they are burning off their sins. I suppose Gods consumimg fire excuses and does not require these souls from ever repenting ... no it's an automatic graduation into the heavenly realm. Wow!
Remember, God was sorry he made man, He grieved because man was totally wicked to the extant that every thought was evil continuously.
Sir, you don't understand what death is, what destruction or to perish means and with that your concept of faith is apparently without value since faith is not necessary for salvation, which goes against what the entire Bible teaches about salvation. Your concept of judgment and justice makes God a gentle merciful Mr. Rogers who makes everyone his neighbor. Hence wars between angels and devils are merely pretense, all for show. Good ole Mr Satan can't really harm anyone, nor will he suffer much - he'll be transformed back into a glorified Lucifer once again, beautiful as he once was. Michael and him will be giving each other high fives when EVERYONE DEMON IS TURNED BACK INTO AN PURE HOLY ANGLE OF LIGHT.
HOW NICE.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: According to my view the ta panta begins in God & the ta panta ends in God!

According to my view God is the Saviour of all mankind & we are commanded to "teach" this fact.

According to my view the consummation of the "cherished" purpose of Abba in all dimensions of the heavens & earth and underworld is IN the Name of all names, the Master of reconciliation, the Lord Jesus Christ.

And yes, wow although falling far short, will suffice for now!

And, Ronald, according to my view>>>>

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

I love the "nonsense" of what our Father "cherishes."

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: According to my view>>>

The polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the identical polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Master of Reconciliation, the Lord of Glory!

Welcome to the Ultimate recovery program

"God rescued us from dead-end alleys and dark dungeons. He’s set us up in the kingdom of the Son he loves so much, the Son who got us out of the pit we were in, got rid of the sins we were doomed to keep repeating.

Christ Holds It All Together

We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created.

For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him.

He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.

He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end.

From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. Everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but>>>

all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross."

-The Message-

 

[Ronald]

Dear Ronald: According to my view the ta panta begins in God & the ta panta ends in God!

According to my view God is the Saviour of all mankind & we are commanded to "teach" this fact.

According to my view the consummation of the "cherished" purpose of Abba in all dimensions of the heavens & earth and underworld is IN the Name of all names, the Master of reconciliation, the Lord Jesus Christ.

And yes, wow although falling far short, will suffice for now!

And, Ronald, according to my view>>>>

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

I love the "nonsense" of what our Father "cherishes."

"Every tree that does not bare good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire." Matt. 7:19

"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:21 ** Here it is plane as day, "not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven!"
"And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say to them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ... Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:32-34, 41 ***The goats on the left are cursed - Jesus makes his final decision and it is obvious He wants nothing more to do with them.

"... repent and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15 ** Repentance and belief is required to enter into His kingdom." Repentance is not offered after one dies!

"... all things are possible to him that believes." Mark 9:23 *** Evidently, according to Universalists, more possibilities are available after you are thrown into the lake of fire!

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned." Mark 16:16
"That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15, 16
*The requirement or qualification for eternal life is belief in Jesus. The gospel is not spread in Hades or in Hell. The words of life are not there for one to consume. Once you die your destiny is fixed.
" Jesus answered and said to him. 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3 ** We are born again when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is no baptism of the dead. We have this life to believe. There is one life and one death and then the judgment. It is not one life, one death and then some more sanctification in Hell.

There is just dozens of scriptures that teach this basic concept of faith. You see what you want to see and believe what you want to - so be it. I'm done.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: I am faced with Scripture that declares the purpose of Abba is to reconcile the entire creation back into union with Himself. That reconciliation extends to all dimensions of the universe of the heavens, the earth & the underworld!

In the final consummation of the ta panta, every knee bows, every tongue exclaims You are Lord! This worship by all beings is IN/EN the Name of Jesus and is NOT by perfunctory genuflections.

Yes, according to my view all beings are drawn, dragged by the mighty power of the Unlimited One back Home!

Can you define reconcile for us? Do you grasp what being IN/EN Jesus Christ means?

Perhaps St. Paul did not grasp what is commanded to teach? Perhaps St John was discombobulated in the scope of worship >>>perhaps LOL.

"And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, [be] the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped."

"I will draw ALL mankind unto Me"

 

[Butch5]

Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

The place most refer to as Hell doesn't really exist. It's a myth. God said that soul that sins shall die. Paul said "the wages of sin is death". That's what happens to the wicked, they die. They will suffer the second death, and die, after the judgment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The place most refer to as Hell doesn't really exist. It's a myth. God said that soul that sins shall die. Paul said "the wages of sin is death". That's what happens to the wicked, they die. They will suffer the second death, and die, after the judgment.

Are you trying to mess up (most) people's centuries long traditions that they received and were taught and believed from Greek mythology !??!

Just because ..... well, why !?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear slave: Is repentance a one time experience?

There is a tense in koine known as the descriptive present, or the progressive present, which depicts an action in progress.

Welcome to repentance.

Every episode of God’s dealings with us, every last one, involves a change which must take place within us where we are brought into alignment with Him & His ways. Such is the progressive present of repentance.

 

[FineLinen]

There is just dozens of scriptures that teach this basic concept of faith. You see what you want to see and believe what you want to - so be it. I'm done.

Dear Ronald: I have enjoyed speaking with you muchly. I regret you are done. As my parting gift to you let us consider the foundation for faith>>>>

Looking unto Jesus the Author & Perfecter of [our] faith."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree with you Ronald, as others have also noted for long time -
In his posts that I've read for a year or more, is only online apostate teachings, heresy, over and over and over and over, (yes, a lot of repetition without learning, without repentance) but there is no known way to silence him in this place.

QUOTE="Ronald, post: 73514030, member: 78965"]"Every tree that does not bare good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire." Matt. 7:19

"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:21 ** Here it is plane as day, "not everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven!"
"And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say to them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ... Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:32-34, 41 ***The goats on the left are cursed - Jesus makes his final decision and it is obvious He wants nothing more to do with them.

"... repent and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15 ** Repentance and belief is required to enter into His kingdom." Repentance is not offered after one dies!

"... all things are possible to him that believes." Mark 9:23 *** Evidently, according to Universalists, more possibilities are available after you are thrown into the lake of fire!

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned." Mark 16:16
"That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15, 16
*The requirement or qualification for eternal life is belief in Jesus. The gospel is not spread in Hades or in Hell. The words of life are not there for one to consume. Once you die your destiny is fixed.
" Jesus answered and said to him. 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3 ** We are born again when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. There is no baptism of the dead. We have this life to believe. There is one life and one death and then the judgment. It is not one life, one death and then some more sanctification in Hell.

There is just dozens of scriptures that teach this basic concept of faith. You see what you want to see and believe what you want to - so be it. I'm done.[/QUOTE
==================================

Dear slave: Is repentance a one time experience? ... ...
Every episode of God’s dealings with us, every last one, involves a change which must take place within us where we are brought into alignment with Him & His ways. Such is the progressive present of repentance.

I don't care at all to read more apostate teachings,
that are known heresy for centuries.
If/ when God deals , let Him deal, let HIM CHANGE, accept HIS CHANGE,
so you may learn from HIM, HIS WAY, and repent, instead of staying on heresy road.

 

[FineLinen]

The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’

When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A.E. Saxby-

The polus "made sinners">>> the polus also "made righteous".

 

[Butch5]

The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’

When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A.E. Saxby-

The polus "made sinners">>> the polus also "made righteous".

Have you reasoned thorough this? I agree that the first paragraph would in no sense be death. However, neither would a process of purification.

You see, in order for something to be a second death, it must be like the first one. If it's not, it's not the second one. We all know that the first death is a loss of life. Therefore the second one must also be a loss of life. It can't be a purification process of some sort.

 

[Ronald]

That

Dear Ronald: I am faced with Scripture that declares the purpose of Abba is to reconcile the entire creation back into union with Himself. That reconciliation extends to all dimensions of the universe of the heavens, the earth & the underworld!

In the final consummation of the ta panta, every knee bows, every tongue exclaims You are Lord! This worship by all beings is IN/EN the Name of Jesus and is NOT by perfunctory genuflections.

Yes, according to my view all beings are drawn, dragged by the mighty power of the Unlimited One back Home!

Can you define reconcile for us? Do you grasp what being IN/EN Jesus Christ means?

Perhaps St. Paul did not grasp what is commanded to teach? Perhaps St John was discombobulated in the scope of worship >>>perhaps LOL.

"And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, [be] the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped."

"I will draw ALL mankind unto Me"

That last verse is post judgment, after all reprodates have been destroyed, after Hades and death itself ha e been destroyed. So of course in the new heaven and earth, every creature (and all animals as well have been changes to a harmonious, peaceful state) will
be perfected since sin and evil are now banished. Then every knee will now - because they are all believers saved.
God does draw all men to Himself but men can resist His love. He does not force anyone to believe, He enables us.
So do not think the Satan does not draw souls into darkness and capture them as well. It would please him to deceive most of humanity to believe all roads lead to heaven - less work for him.
Ask me what reconcile means? Do you know what saved means? It is a cleansing of sin, a bonding together in a relationship as God quickens your spirit to life and takes up residence within you. You are a new creation. We are adopted as sons into the body of Christ, born again.
His happens when we are alive and breathing. It does not happen after we die. Salvation is for Today. Hades is darkness, Hell is void of spiritual light. The only light they will is the physical light of fire.

 

[Der Alte]

начало

<B5>Have you reasoned thorough this? I agree that the first paragraph would in no sense be death. However, neither would a process of purification.
You see, in order for something to be a second death, it must be like the first one. If it's not, it's not the second one. We all know that the first death is a loss of life. Therefore the second one must also be a loss of life. It can't be a purification process of some sort.<B5>

конец

But for the fact that the only place second death is mentioned is in Rev and scripture never says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LoF then they/it dies. The only activity mentioned in the LoF is three sentient beings; the devil, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LoF but they do not die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Nothing in these verses is like "the first death."
In Rev 19:20 the beast and the false prophet were thrown into the LoF 1000 years before the devil. Rev 20:2

Revelation 19:20
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:2
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

In Rev 20:14 death and hell are thrown into the LoF. Death is the point in time end of life. Death has no life of its own. It cannot literally die. Hell whether it is viewed as the grave or the place of punishment has no life of its own. It cannot literally die.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Although the LoF is called "the second death." Neither death nor hell can and have not died a first death, so they cannot die a second death. Nothing in this verse is like the first death.

 

[FineLinen]

Then every knee will now - because they are all believers saved.

Dear Ronald: Every knee bows IN/EN the Name of Jesus in all dimensions of the earth, the heavens & the underworld. Of course they are all saved, and more so, being reconciled in the mighty helkuo of the Unlimited One.

This identical polus "made sinners" in the first Adam, are the polus "made righteous" in the Last, every last broken wreck reconciled!

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Ronald: Never ever limit the Holy One Of Israel! You imagine His will being multiple choice, in my view His will prevails, ALWAYS!

Salvation in the koine =esothen & sozomenos & sothesomai

There is a tense in koine known as the descriptive present, or the progressive present, which depicts an action in progress.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with you Ronald, as others have also noted for long time -
In his posts that I've read for a year or more, is only online apostate teachings, heresy, over and over and over and over, (yes, a lot of repetition without learning, without repentance) but there is no known way to silence him in this place.

Here is my view about what you refer to as "online apostate teachings, heresy." Not one thing from the internet. My only sources the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud and the New Testament.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.. Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, there is no reason Jesus would that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

 

[Pneuma3]

Have you reasoned thorough this? I agree that the first paragraph would in no sense be death. However, neither would a process of purification.

You see, in order for something to be a second death, it must be like the first one. If it's not, it's not the second one. We all know that the first death is a loss of life. Therefore the second one must also be a loss of life. It can't be a purification process of some sort.

did you ever think that it is speaking of death to our self life? we are to die daily that Christ might shine forth. It is not the man that dies but rather our old man that does.

 

[ClementofA]

According to your view, when God destroyed the entire planet with a flood and spared only 8 people to start over again, that was just a temporal punishment and all of those wicked people are waiting in Hades to receive a final bath in the lake of fire for a love cleansing in order to be presented to the Father WITHOUT EVER HAVING FAITH, KNOWIMG HIM, OR HAVING TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. In this strange lake of fire, apparently there are classes, bibles and teachers to educate these lost souls while they are burning off their sins. I suppose Gods consumimg fire excuses and does not require these souls from ever repenting ... no it's an automatic graduation into the heavenly realm. Wow!
Remember, God was sorry he made man, He grieved because man was totally wicked to the extant that every thought was evil continuously.
Sir, you don't understand what death is, what destruction or to perish means and with that your concept of faith is apparently without value since faith is not necessary for salvation, which goes against what the entire Bible teaches about salvation. Your concept of judgment and justice makes God a gentle merciful Mr. Rogers who makes everyone his neighbor. Hence wars between angels and devils are merely pretense, all for show. Good ole Mr Satan can't really harm anyone, nor will he suffer much - he'll be transformed back into a glorified Lucifer once again, beautiful as he once was. Michael and him will be giving each other high fives when EVERYONE DEMON IS TURNED BACK INTO AN PURE HOLY ANGLE OF LIGHT.
HOW NICE.

You think Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures is like a Hitler who annihilates billions out of existence forever & infinitely for the finite momentary sins of a brief & fleeting lifetime of a few years or decades?

You think His love expires about as quickly as a carton of milk. But God is a God of infinite and unconditional love. It is far greater than the vast universe He created.

If He doesn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

Annihilating eternally does not respect human free will. Nor is it for the good of anyone, including the relatives & loved ones of those endlessly annihilated.

Three assertions are made, generally, by Christians:

God loves everyone.
God can save anyone.
God's love never ends.
Only two of the above statements can be true at the same time if we assume that there are some who will not be saved (which is to say that we are not universalists). If God loves everyone, and if God can save everyone he loves, and if God does not change his mind about his love, then everyone will be saved.

From 1-3 above it follows that

4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.

Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

------------------------

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

-----------------


"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

The place most refer to as Hell doesn't really exist. It's a myth. God said that soul that sins shall die. Paul said "the wages of sin is death". That's what happens to the wicked, they die. They will suffer the second death, and die, after the judgment.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
-Romans 6:23

The great gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus to those who humbly repent and accept His lordship in life. There are no second chances after death (Hebrews 9:27), no programs of repentance are possible and no life at all.

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone is annihilated forever? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, your translation is misleading, as the OP of this thread implies. A more literal honest version is:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Furthermore Rom 6 23 doesn't deny that everyone will eventually receive the gift of eonian life. It doesn't address the question of how many human beings will get this gift.
OTOH Scripture reveals that everyone will obtain "life" & be "constituted just":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

There are no second chances after death (Hebrews 9:27), no programs of repentance are possible and no life at all.

Hebrews 9:27 does not say there are "no second chances after death". If there's no postmortem salvation, what happens to those who die as infants? Does God's love have an expiry date like a carton of milk? If Love Omnipotent doesn't save all, is it because He is unable or because He doesn't want to?

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.