How can you determine which is true?

JohnB445

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Correction" They should be led of the Spirit. Do you sin? Yes or no?

You are confusing professing Christians, with Possessing Christians (Those with the Holy Spirit).

I can guarantee, that most likely those who have not been regenerated and have pushed God to the side are not Born Again, meaning they don't have the Holy Spirit.

Once you are Born Again, you are predestinated to be with the Lord, and God will finish the good work inside you.

Those that you see struggling with sin to the point they have no victory or have no desire for God are not Born Again.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I have seen both views on eternal security. I honestly don't know for sure.

Born Again Pentecostals will say since we have free will, it is possible for man to turn away from God after being saved, and then Born Again Calvinist will say its impossible to fall away once they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit they are eternally secure.

Although I believe we have free will, the idea of one turning away from God after being born again in the future sounds bizarre.

The weight (Importance) of the doctrine of eternal security I figured is low.
If one believes its impossible to fall away once the Holy Spirit indwells and they are born again, it results in an assurance that in the future they will persevere and that they are predestined salvation in the future.

If one believes by free will they can apostatize after being born again, that will result in them being more steadfast in their faith as opposed to absolute comfort when it comes to the future.

Both come up with good arguments, don't know which one.

I agree that both ideas can promote a positive outcome in people who are devoted servants of God. I think the dilemma is more aimed at those who are weak in faith. How these people would perceive salvation without the proper maturity in their devotion and faith. Personally I don’t agree with eternal security mostly because of John 15:1-8. It doesn’t make sense to me that Jesus would warn His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him and produce fruit even explaining the consequences if they were incapable of not abiding or turning away. This would mean that Jesus was warning them of doing something that would be impossible if eternal security was true.
 
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zoidar

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You are confusing professing Christians, with Possessing Christians (Those with the Holy Spirit).

I can guarantee, that most likely those who have not been regenerated and have pushed God to the side are not Born Again, meaning they don't have the Holy Spirit.

Once you are Born Again, you are predestinated to be with the Lord, and God will finish the good work inside you.

Those that you see struggling with sin to the point they have no victory or have no desire for God are not Born Again.

You seem pretty sure of eternal security, but in your first post you wasn't. I don't think it's necessarly wrong to believe in eternal security. But if it gives you an assurance you can live in sin since being eternal secure, it can be dangerous.
 
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JohnB445

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You seem pretty sure of eternal security, but in your first post you wasn't. I don't think it's necessarly wrong to believe in eternal security. But if it gives you an assurance you can live in sin since being eternal secure, it can be dangerous.

The guilt of sin is too much to bear, so I'd rather not sin wilfully.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You seem pretty sure of eternal security, but in your first post you wasn't. I don't think it's necessarly wrong to believe in eternal security. But if it gives you an assurance you can live in sin since being eternal secure, it can be dangerous.
Yes, it is often, or may be, teachings that are associated frequently with the deception in any group anywhere that cause more deception and loss of life (spiritual and physical, etc)
than the main teaching that is emphasized or discussed.

i.e. People in the New Jerusalem , in the future life, have eternal security already by then.
But there may be problems with believing that 'teaching' now, today , on earth, that could potentially prevent people from being resurrected in Christ Jesus. (because of unbelief?) (or willing, or willful, disobedience without repentance)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not what it says. "because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Rom 8:14 And how do you become a son of God? "you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:26 Was it a matter of effort to become a child of God? "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13

As for sinning, it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 So how do you understand what John says here? Or do you reckon John a liar? Or do you simply ignore what John says?

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2 That's the theme of Romans 8, which you ignore and contradict. You simply can't believe it, because you're caught up in your salvation by works soteriology which you read into every passage, rejecting the grace of God inherent in the gospel.


Here you contradict yourself. For you claim that salvation is contingent upon one's ongoing performance, but then deny it. So let's hear it from you. It's your salvation contingent upon your ongoing performance or not? This question is not rocket science. Make up your mind.

Those who ARE led by the Spirit are Sons of God. Key word is “are”. This doesn’t mean those who were once led by the Spirit are Sons of God.

Your translation of John 1:12-13 is not quite accurate friend.

John 1:12

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God – to those believing in his name,


John 1:13

13 who – not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but – of God were begotten.

Now if we do not decide whether or not to become children of God how do we have the authority to become children of God as stated in verse 12?

Let’s examine the word authority or right

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

power


G1849


Lemma:

ἐξουσία


Transliteration:

exousía


Pronounce:

ex-oo-see'-ah


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) a) universally

1) authority over mankind b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority a) a ruler, a human magistrate b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself e) the sign of regal authority, a crown


“There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1‬

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬

We must abide in Christ to be in Him. Anyone who abides in Him will bear much fruit.
 
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bcbsr

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Those who ARE led by the Spirit are Sons of God. Key word is “are”. This doesn’t mean those who were once led by the Spirit are Sons of God.

Your translation of John 1:12-13 is not quite accurate friend.

John 1:12

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God – to those believing in his name,


John 1:13

13 who – not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but – of God were begotten.

Now if we do not decide whether or not to become children of God how do we have the authority to become children of God as stated in verse 12?

Let’s examine the word authority or right

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

power


G1849


Lemma:

ἐξουσία


Transliteration:

exousía


Pronounce:

ex-oo-see'-ah


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) a) universally

1) authority over mankind b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority a) a ruler, a human magistrate b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself e) the sign of regal authority, a crown


“There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1‬

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬

We must abide in Christ to be in Him. Anyone who abides in Him will bear much fruit.
Since "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" 1JOhn 3:9, then there's no possibility of falling away. And that fact is confirmed in the same epistle where John states, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 Thus passages such as Romans 8 which speak of there being no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, are simply describing the behavior of those who have been born of God. This as opposed to the suggestion by you salvation by works Christians who view one's performance as a condition for salvation.

Furthermore the very concept of being born is uni-directional. Having been born a person cannot become "unborn", as you suggest. And as for "in Christ Jesus", it is written:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Nothing about works) Sealed for eternity, having come to belong to Christ.

You salvation by works Christians put your trust in your own performance to save you, this as opposed to trusting in Christ to save you. And since you don't put your faith in Christ you don't qualify to be saved. One evidence that a person belongs to Christ is that they affirm the gospel of grace. Testifying against the gospel, making salvation out to be a matter of one's performance is evidence to the contrary.
 
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MDC

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Since "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" 1JOhn 3:9, then there's no possibility of falling away. And that fact is confirmed in the same epistle where John states, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 Thus passages such as Romans 8 which speak of there being no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, are simply describing the behavior of those who have been born of God. This as opposed to the suggestion by you salvation by works Christians who view one's performance as a condition for salvation.

Furthermore the very concept of being born is uni-directional. Having been born a person cannot become "unborn", as you suggest. And as for "in Christ Jesus", it is written:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Nothing about works) Sealed for eternity, having come to belong to Christ.

You salvation by works Christians put your trust in your own performance to save you, this as opposed to trusting in Christ to save you. And since you don't put your faith in Christ you don't qualify to be saved. One evidence that a person belongs to Christ is that they affirm the gospel of grace. Testifying against the gospel, making salvation out to be a matter of one's performance is evidence to the contrary.
Affirming the gospel of grace is the fruit of a believer no doubt. Well put!
 
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Oldmantook

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Not what it says. "because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Rom 8:14 And how do you become a son of God? "you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:26 Was it a matter of effort to become a child of God? "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13

As for sinning, it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 So how do you understand what John says here? Or do you reckon John a liar? Or do you simply ignore what John says?

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2 That's the theme of Romans 8, which you ignore and contradict. You simply can't believe it, because you're caught up in your salvation by works soteriology which you read into every passage, rejecting the grace of God inherent in the gospel.


Here you contradict yourself. For you claim that salvation is contingent upon one's ongoing performance, but then deny it. So let's hear it from you. It's your salvation contingent upon your ongoing performance or not? This question is not rocket science. Make up your mind.
I specifically asked you if YOU sin? I asked you if you practice sin? Simple questions which you neglected to answer. I suppose you would answer yes to the first question unless you consider yourself to be totally sinless and no to the second question. By answering yes to the first question totally negates your claim that genuine Christians will always choose not to sin. Even genuine Christians occasionally sin - yes or no?? HOWEVER, not all Christians choose not to practice sin. FYI, did you not even notice that the present tense verb 1 Jn 3:9 regarding sin is continuing or practicing sin? I repeat all Christians sin, but not all Christians continue or practice sin and therein lies the difference that you fail to account for.
Moreover, you even fail to read Rom 8:1 correctly because you ignore v.4 which follows it. There is no condemnation for those who are Christ Jesus (v.1). - "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (v.4) There is no condemnation - only for those who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those Christians who choose to live in the flesh - are condemned. Your interpretation of the gospel of grace simply amounts to a license to sin. That is why Paul warns the brethren if they live according to the flesh, they will die (v.13). Scripture interprets scripture doesn't it?
 
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Oldmantook

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You are confusing professing Christians, with Possessing Christians (Those with the Holy Spirit).

I can guarantee, that most likely those who have not been regenerated and have pushed God to the side are not Born Again, meaning they don't have the Holy Spirit.

Once you are Born Again, you are predestinated to be with the Lord, and God will finish the good work inside you.

Those that you see struggling with sin to the point they have no victory or have no desire for God are not Born Again.
Really? So if you denied the Lord by accepting the mark of the beast would you still be saved?? Yes or No? Would you still be predestined? Yes or No? If you did, would that mean that you were never a "possessing Christian" in the first place? Yes or No? I look forward to your response.
 
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JohnB445

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Really? So if you denied the Lord by accepting the mark of the beast would you still be saved?? Yes or No? Would you still be predestined? Yes or No? If you did, would that mean that you were never a "possessing Christian" in the first place? Yes or No? I look forward to your response.

I believe the Church will be raptured. People who take the mark were never believers if they take the mark. As God said do not take the Mark.

So it comes down if they believe in God command or not, if they don't believe in God's command they take the Mark.
 
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JohnB445

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1st.. WHY NO ONE IS ASKING ..."until the cows come home" [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] am I the ONLY ONE that asks.. WHO left the gate open? YEAH HELLO!

You know.. before many left Him.. He knew of them the ones that did not believe. Some like to think they(or the one) always believed yet later walked away.. Our brother said "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

See this is not of this world. Its not something you or I had a hand in.. Look at Saul then later Paul..You think Paul just ..a it about time I act nicer to the people I KNOW were not of GOD that I killed and what not. No.. something was made NEW..something that was not..something that was dead. Adam and Eve..before and after. Flip it..

When I got saved. I still listen to acid rock music.... No one was telling me to stop. I didnt feel guilty.. I cant explain it.. something in me.. it just stopped.. I have never wanted it back. See.. when you make that choice..what HE not you.. what HE not you what HE started HE WILL FINISH! Can GOD lie?

Stop running with things that are NOT written..didnt say we can want to leave.. haha...ok so lets go look for those cows now

I had the same experience in terms of music, and it was not that I thought listening to rock music or rap was bad, just the next morning I was appalled by the music I listened to and no longer desired for it. Thank you for your post.

It goes to further show that it is truly God working in the lives of believers, and not solely the believer working out his own life.

The moment I got born again, the hard sins I struggled with were no longer desired anymore. Just like it disappeared, and like my conscious got fully restored even though it was terribly seared in the past.

I have assurance he will fulfill his will, God's grace never fails. Those whom he saved by his blood, he keeps forever.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yahweh provided all anyone needs to be saved, but most people choose not to be saved, ever. i.e. provision of all that is needed is not sufficient to save any man.
Likewise, Yahweh never says He takes away a man's free will to choose, and that a man must endure to the end to be saved, and with many other warnings about not being cut out like Israel was for their unbelief, which people who are careless might ignore the warnings, at their own peril and even face a greater judgment if they cause others to fall also.
 
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Oldmantook

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"I certainly don't believe that only believers can choose if they will live according to the flesh or Spirit. This is a choice that stands before every person who hears the Gospel - believer or not."
Must I repeat my request yet another time?? How can Paul write to the unbeliever IF you live according to the flesh.... The unbeliever can only live according to the flesh; it is not a matter of IF. Only a believer can choose if he lives according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. I'm still waiting for your explanation of how "if" applies to unbelievers. Shall I wait any longer??

You don't seem to understand that none of your observations on the grammar of verse 13 make any difference to what I pointed out. Nor do your observations actually strengthen your contentions about Paul's meaning. No, despite all your ramblings about grammar (an attempt at obfuscation, I suspect), you had to add to the verse in order to wrest it to your point of view. That's telling, I think. And not in a good way.
You ignore the IF FACTOR - unless you reconcile that little word with you write, then what you believe is a non-factor.

But you added "brother" and "brethren" to your loose interpretation of verse 13, not verse 12. Verse 12 describes the saved person, the "brother" (or sister) among those who would read Paul's letter, who is set in contrast to the lost person described in verse 13, whom Paul is careful not to refer to in a familial way. Any of the brethren living according to the flesh revealed in doing so that t
Is verse 12 not part of v.13? Apparently you have a blind eye to the conjunction which connects v.13 to v.12. That conjunction is the word "FOR." The word "for" indicates that Paul's warning in v.13 is FOR the brethren in v.12. Any further questions?

It is very interesting to note, I think, that Paul never speaks of works in this passage, only of the indwelling Spirit as the defining sign of a saved person. He seems to think that when the Holy Spirit is within a person, they will know it quite apart from any righteous works. And this is something Paul later confirmed when he wrote in the same chapter,
What do you suppose "living according to the Spirit means?? If you are living by the Spirit, your life should manifest good works. If you are not, you life will certainly not manifest good works.

In any case, I don't see that your ideas about verse 13 indicating a saved-and-lost perspective are correct. Far from it. Nothing you've said defeats what I've pointed out about the obvious contrast Paul builds early in the chapter between the saved and the lost person and the import of this contrast to Paul's conclusion about it in verse 13.
Until you explain the "if" in v.13, everything you have written thus far is out-of-context and irrelevant. Shall I go on waiting?

Oh, and about my qualifications: I teach seminary students.
Really? Tell me which seminary and what do you teach? Do you even teach them that v.13 is a 1st class conditional sentence and what that means in the Greek? Why don't you explain to me what a 1st class conditional sentence is and how it effects the meaning of v.13? I'll wait for your explanation.
 
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Oldmantook

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I believe the Church will be raptured. People who take the mark were never believers if they take the mark. As God said do not take the Mark.

So it comes down if they believe in God command or not, if they don't believe in God's command they take the Mark.
You evaded answering my question. Even if you believe in the rapture (which is false) for the sake of argument, would you take the mark? Yes or no? What happens to you if you take the mark? Are you still saved since you believe that you can never lose your salvation? Oh... and by the way, if you happen to read the Bible, the SAINTS are still around at the time of the mark of the beast. Rev 14:12 states "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." The saints [which only refers to genuine believers] are called to endure by keeping God's commandments and their faith instead of taking the mark.
 
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