FineLinen

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Take 8

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!
 
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Rubiks

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Take 7

You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??

There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy for you!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!

Actually "eternal punishment" can simply refer to an end result that is eternal. Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" Nobody is repeatedly being saved for all eternity.
 
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Rubiks

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Der Alte

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If you are going to continue posting your conclusions at the beginnings of your posts, I don't care to discuss the matter with you. I thought you weren't going to read my posts anymore, anyway. Maybe I should just post more "internet fantasy" to see if you are paying attention.
What exactly are you complaining about? In post #556, above, you do exactly the same thing you are accusing me of. You state a premise at the beginning then you provide evidence you think supports that premise. How is that different than my posts? Are you familiar with the lexical fallacy?
Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;


 
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FineLinen

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Actually "eternal punishment" can simply refer to an end result that is eternal. Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" Nobody is repeatedly being saved for all eternity.

Dear Rubiks: there is no such animal as "eternal punishment"! None, nada! Why don't you fill in the blanks for "everlasting punishment"? Be the very first, dear Rubiks.

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Your search query has yielded one result. Matt.25.46
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
"By definition aion means eternity."
Not according to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent !
'Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).
It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life.
The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.
It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21.
Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3.
The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time.
Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting.
How does this quote from Vincent address, refute, rebut or disprove any of the 23 verses in my post?
I was not aware that Vincent was the be all, end all authority on Koine Greek
I think Plato, Aristotle and Philo trump Vincent.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal (aion and aionios)*
J. N. Darby.
For fifty years he was strenuously engaged in original exposition of Scripture. The "Synopsis," recommended by Bishop Ellicott to the Gloucester theological students, acquired amongst J.N.D.´s adherents authority like that commanded by Wesley´s "Notes" amongst Methodists. Professor Stokes has described it as "the standard of appeal. Every departure from that model is bitterly resented" ("Expositor´s Bible," Acts 1, page 382). But nobody has protested against such use of his writings more than Darby himself, for whom truth was "a growing tree" (C. W., XXIII, page 191).
_________
Some passages from other authors, which prove that (while used in other senses, some of which are not found at all in Scripture), it does mean "eternity" and "eternal." I will afterwards examine some of the passages in Scripture in which it is found.
Aion in Greek properly means "eternity." …the word is distinctly used by Plato, Aristotle, and Philo (and, according to the dictionaries, by Lycurgus, … as "eternal," in contrast with what is of time having beginning or ending, as its definite and proper meaning.
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; … .. [H]e says (p. 38): "… Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … …Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God .. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages.
125 I now give Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): … It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." … it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios.
126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity [aioni] nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. …. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force…. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4:18, “ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia.” Things that are for a time are in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.[2 Cor 4:18 on my list of 23. DA]
[V]arious passages of Scripture to shew aion or aionios has the definite meaning of "for ever," or "eternal," in English. Again, Mark 3:29, oik echei aphesin eis ton aiona. What age? It is not in the age, as some have fraudulently translated it, but "has not ever forgiveness." It is not any particular age; the eis allows no such sense, and the ton would require some particular age, which even so would leave no sense to eis. It can only mean here "for ever."
… The knowledge of the Father, and of Jesus Christ, whom He has sent, is life for the age. Is that all? The words of Jesus were remata zoes aioniou not tes zoes. It was that in its nature, not a specific period: indeed believers have it now. In Romans 6:22 the end is everlasting life. So that the life of that age, though no particular one is ever spoken of, is the end of the matter.
But the eternal weight of glory is that of which the apostle speaks, when he says that the things are not for a time, proskaira, but eternal, aionia, [2 Cor] chapter 5:1 going on to say that he was looking for a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. … Before anything was created, this life was given us in Christ; putting it in its nature out of time.[2 Cor 5;1 in my list of 23, DA]
That this life promised before the ages (chronon aionion), and which Christ is in His Person as with the Father, is only a life in one of these ages; and that when I read that the God of all grace has called us to His eternal glory by Jesus Christ, for which we may suffer a while, it is only a temporary glory of His for some special age; 1 Peter 5:10. That the glory of God, for which we hope in contradistinction to the peace and favour we possess, is only a temporary thing, for I suppose His own glory is the glory we boast in Romans 5. That language of exuberant apprehension is used, such as "ages of ages," and all the "generations of the age," or "eternity of ages," we know. But this does not alter the meaning of the word: aionios is properly the opposite to proskairos.[temporary/temporal][1 Pet 5:10 on my list of 23, DA]

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal


 
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Der Alte

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Lazarus Short

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Actually both English Hell and Old Norse Hell are derived from Proto-Germanic *Haljô (j is pronounced like English 'y')

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/haljō - Wiktionary

That's some heavy linguistic evidence there, more than I found in the OED, even if a certain poster will complain over and over that it does not apply. A comparative linguist might disagree.
 
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FineLinen

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How does this quote from Vincent address, refute, rebut or disprove any of the 23 verses in my post?
I was not aware that Vincent was the be all, end all authority on Koine Greek

G. Campbell Morgan

g. campbell morgan books - Google Search

F.W. Farrar

books by f w farrar - Google Search

Dr. Marvin Vincent

marvin vincent books - Google Search

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"The true way to be humble is not to stoop till you are smaller than yourself, but to stand at your real height against some higher nature that shall show you what the real smallness of your greatest greatness is." -Phillips Brooks-
 
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ClementofA

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All this stuff Origen is saying can you provide scripture? If not it is meaningless.

All your nonbiblical stuff you quote - Jewish Encyclopedia, BDAG, church fathers, your private opinions & interpretations - "is saying can you provide scripture? If not it is meaningless."
 
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ClementofA

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Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc

Yet Jesus & Scripture never use AIDIOS of the punishment of anyone.

Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?

I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished (1 Cor.15:26-28), not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): Christianity and Classical Culture

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com


If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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BarWi

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Is that a fact?
In the following twenty three [23] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:
1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
Your response demonstrates your complete inability to grasp the depth of Scripture necessary to see the truth of the salvation of all, Der Alter. You're among those I have for years called "point scorers", grounded in the sad state of belief that the most citations score the most points and win the "truth" award. In reality, there's almost no connection between citation points and truth. You are legion. Your presence is on every theology board on the internet. When the time comes I'll demonstrate that eternal hell, annihilationism and the forever and eternal decree of destruction to God's enemies are all perfectly compatible with the salvation of all. But I predict you'll keep your blinders on and stick to the ad infinitum, tiresome point-scoring of sterile literalism, despite the careful, rational exposition of not merely God's will but the amazing explanation for how He saves all. It's plastered all over the Bible, both Testaments in plain sight where the most rigid point-scorers can't see it.
 
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FineLinen

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Your response demonstrates your complete inability to grasp the depth of Scripture necessary to see the truth of the salvation of all, Der Alter. You're among those I have for years called "point scorers", grounded in the sad state of belief that the most citations score the most points and win the "truth" award. In reality, there's almost no connection between citation points and truth. You are legion. Your presence is on every theology board on the internet. When the time comes I'll demonstrate that eternal hell, annihilationism and the forever and eternal decree of destruction to God's enemies are all perfectly compatible with the salvation of all. But I predict you'll keep your blinders on and stick to the ad infinitum, tiresome point-scoring of sterile literalism, despite the careful, rational exposition of not merely God's will but the amazing explanation for how He saves all. It's plastered all over the Bible, both Testaments in plain sight where the most rigid point-scorers can't see it.

Dear Bar: You are a rich treasure! The "point scorers" empty rhetoric falls so far short!

 
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Ronald

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Your search query has yielded one result. Matt.25.46

The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A. E. Saxby
Thanks for your input. It is obvious that since the beginning, various views exist along with confusion about the afterlife. I've done an exhaustive study on this subject, research that I've used to write two chapters in my book, "Hell ... If I Know". I must say that outside the Bible, I traded lightly. With any doctrine, the closer to scripture we stay, the better.
 
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Der Alte

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<BW>Your response demonstrates your complete inability to grasp the depth of Scripture necessary to see the truth of the salvation of all, Der Alter. You're among those I have for years called "point scorers", grounded in the sad state of belief that the most citations score the most points and win the "truth" award. In reality, there's almost no connection between citation points and truth. You are legion. Your presence is on every theology board on the internet. When the time comes I'll demonstrate that eternal hell, annihilationism and the forever and eternal decree of destruction to God's enemies are all perfectly compatible with the salvation of all. But I predict you'll keep your blinders on and stick to the ad infinitum, tiresome point-scoring of sterile literalism, despite the careful, rational exposition of not merely God's will but the amazing explanation for how He saves all. It's plastered all over the Bible, both Testaments in plain sight where the most rigid point-scorers can't see it.<end>
Thank you for this unsolicited, blatantly false, irrelevant, illogical opinion. Somewhere is this plethora of words there should be some examples given. Alas there are none. What you are accusing me of is exactly what many UR-ites do. For example, only yesterday one UR-ite, in this very thread, posted so many "point scoring" quotes from scripture, ECF, UR "experts"etc, etc, it took three posts, back to back, to hold it all.What many, maybe most, UR-ites don't understand, just as you pointed out, posting scripture etc. just to score points is meaningless.
.....This is the situation we have here. For example, "poster A" posts 6-7 vss. where Greek word "*****" means "thing 'A'." And "poster B" says, "No it does not." and posts 6-7 vss. where the same Greek word means "thing B." "Poster B" has not provided any evidence that "*****" means only 'thing A' and cannot, possibly mean 'thing B'." That is the only thing that will resolve this dilemma.
When Abraham Lincoln was criticized for the way he conducted the civil war he said,

“If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.”
How many angels are UR?
 
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Der Alte

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That's some heavy linguistic evidence there, more than I found in the OED, even if a certain poster will complain over and over that it does not apply. A comparative linguist might disagree.
You did notice that particular post was quoted from "Wiktionary?" Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every article has [edit] links. Anybody can post, add, delete, change anything without review.
While OED is an excellent resource for determining the meaning of English words I'm afraid it does not help us with the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words. IIRC the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek.
 
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FineLinen

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Thank you for this unsolicited, blatantly false, irrelevant, illogical opinion.

In an attempt to expand your limited words I want to help you.

Words for irrelevant=

extraneous, immaterial, impertinent, inapplicable, inapposite, irrelative

Words Related to irrelevant=

incidental, peripheral, tangent, tangential

dead, moot

inconsequential, insignificant, unimportant

empty, inane, meaningless, pointless, senseless, useless

inappropriate, inapt, unsuitable

extraneous, immaterial, impertinent, inapplicable, inapposite, irrelative
 
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FineLinen

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Thanks for your input. It is obvious that since the beginning, various views exist along with confusion about the afterlife. I've done an exhaustive study on this subject, research that I've used to write two chapters in my book, "Hell ... If I Know". I must say that outside the Bible, I traded lightly. With any doctrine, the closer to scripture we stay, the better.

Dear Ronald: From the earliest days of the Church there have been various schools of thought & plenty of confusion with a capital C. We indeed need to tread lightly.The earliest disciples of our Lord exclaimed "how can these things be?" The Scriptures are the foundation, with the Author of the Scriptures anointing our eyes, ears and heart!
 
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Der Alte

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Actually "eternal punishment" can simply refer to an end result that is eternal. Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" Nobody is repeatedly being saved for all eternity.
Interesting conclusion. And it would be correct but for the fact that the word translated "salvation" is a noun not a verb. "being saved" is a verbal phrase.
 
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