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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    Clement, I agree with your kolasis assessment, but the salvation of all doesn't depend on the eonian turn. Its truth can be demonstrated allowing every instance of "eternal" that scholars past and present use it in the Bible, including in Mat 25:46.
     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Bar: Where did you get the idea Clement believes the salvation of all depends on the koine aionios?

    Can you be the first to fill in the blanks for the qualification factors of Matt. 25? They are?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  3. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    FineLinen, you seem to be getting the same response to your proposed five-point list as I do with my query "How can Death be destroyed if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell?"
     
  4. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    I may have overstepped my understanding here...have been reading in the thread sporadically and may have imposed what I felt I saw as the tired, overused aionios defense on Clement. If so, my apologies to you and him (her?). If I can, I'll try to go back and reread to see where I messed up.

    I believe I can. They are: much too involved to inject into this thread, would probably be considered taking thread off topic. Also don't have time to start it right now. I did battle with the closed-minded Der Alter on my view of eternal salvation some years ago, and it was like beating on a concrete wall with a marshmallow hammer. To do the topic justice I'll need to start new thread and insist that arguments made be directed entirely and only to the specific view of the salvation of all I provide, which is considerably different than those typically used.
     
  5. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    This has been addressed many times, so your persistence that we believe everyone will be saved in their state of sin is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst to that which we believe.

    How many times do you have to be told that everyone will be changed or exchange this body of sin for a glorified body before it sink in.
     
  6. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Go ahead and start a thread Bar. Those who believe in the salvation of all are all agreed on that outcome but we do have differences on how God accomplishes it. For instance I see the 2nd death as the law whereas other do not. Thus I would be interested in your views of the salvation of all even if they differ from mine.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Bar: my friend Clement, is a remarkable reservoir of unlimited dimensions of information & I thank Abba we met some months ago on another Board!

    As for D.A.:Concrete at least deteriorates at the 50 year point. It is his arrogance that is his downfall, but alas he knows it not!
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  9. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    A marshmallow hammer will eventually wear out concrete.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    BarWi, is it your position that people can suffer "everlasting punishment" (KJV) & still be saved? If so, it would be interesting to hear how you explain that & passages such as Mk.3:29 KJV. Before you do so, however, i'd suggest reading the following thread, beginning with this post: Don Preston on 2 Thes 1:9
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What makes them "irrefutable"? Is that like a pontiff who is "infallible"? Are the Jews right, according to you, that Jesus is not the Messiah?

    First you say:

    "It is not relevant what the Jews did or did not believe about the after life."

    Then why do you go on to speak about what "Some Jews...believe" & "did not believe" & among some Jews "there was a belief in a place..." & refer to a Jewish site & say
    "See this link" re the Jewish site with Jewish beliefs?

    Are you Jewish?

    And, BTW, there was an ancient Jewish belief roughly 1900 to 2000 years ago that there are those who go down to hell and come up again & another Jewish belief that hell will cease, etc.

    So those - Jewish - beliefs say:

    "hell shall pass away" and

    "All that descend to Gehenna", i.e. hell, "shall come up again..." with only 3 exceptions.

    But Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

    Furthermore, Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your entire post has been addressed multiple times in multiple ways, such as these responses:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
     
  13. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    Sorry, I know some don't like response to multiple posts in one setting but too lazy to do a bunch one after another.

    I understand that I have to wait until I have a certain number of posts and some other criteria before I can post. I would post under original username but long since forgot what it was for this site. I just posted a paper on Academia.edu that provides the metaphysical prelude to my understanding of how God saves all. When I can start thread will post a link to it on my personal page.

    Lol to the above. Problem is, I almost certainly won't last long enough to do the hammering.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Lazarus: do you really expect these wascally wascals so engrossed in damning Abba's broken wrecks in Adam1 to actually respond to us?
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Thank you for this irrelevant opinion about "Origen's Commentary on John" a source you have repeatedly quoted as proof that there is "after aionios" and "beyond aionios." But strangely when it contradicts your UR assumptions/presuppositions you want to rewrite it

    I don't have a clue what you are talking about here. But let me remind you again I have been speaking English as my native language since FDR was president and I have post graduate studies therefore I do not require explanation or clarification of what plain English words mean.
    Here is the quote from your Heracleon link and what I posted shown together please explain the contradiction you claim to see.

    Heracleon: But the water which the Savior gives is from his spirit and his power. . .The words “shall never thirst again” mean that his life is eternal and never perishes as does the first (life) which the well provides, but rather is lasting. For the Grace and gift of our Savior cannot be taken away, and is not consumed or destroyed in the one who partakes of it. The first life is perishable. . . (In John 4:14, “The water I shall give that one shall be a well of water within springing up into everlasting life.”) The words “springing up” (John 4:14) refer to those who receive what is richly supplied from above and who themselves pour forth for the eternal life of others that which has been supplied to them. . . (In John 4:15,
    ===========
    Origen's commentary;
    (60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
    (61) He would be correct when he grants that the first life perishes if he meant that life which is according to the letter, when it seeks and discovers the life according to the Spirit by the removal of the veil. But, if he is accusing the ancient words of passing out of existence all together, it is clear that he does this because he does not perceive that those good words contain the shadow of future things.

    Let me remind you that you continually quote Origen so if you have a question about which word Origen used that is translated "eternal" then you start checking your sources and I suggest you be absolutely correct because I can verify. Lawyers have a saying "Don't ask a question you don't know the answer to." Among my other accomplishments I studied "Introduction to Criminal Investigation" at FLETC, Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Glynco, Ga.
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Bar: I must make allowances to an individual like D.A due to his youth & lack of experience. With great doubt I will last long enough to do the hammering but it will be a joy attempting the feat!

    Now, where were we? I remember; the damnation of everyone but us.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Quite an interesting source. Are you sure you want to rely on this? Here is part of pg 10 and all of pg. 11. The first thing I notice about this page is not one single verse of scripture is quoted.
    "In the end creatures will no longer be in an aeon, and therefore in history. but will he permeated by God and participate in divine life. This will he the eventual deification (Theosis. on which see Ramelli. Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, the chapters on Origen and Evagrius; and Augustine Casiday. Deification in Origen. Evagrius. and Casmian.” in Origeniana VIII [ed. Lorenzo Perrone; Leuven: Peeters. 2003]. 2:995-1001). In On First Principles 2.3.1 too, Origen posits “a stage in which there will be no aeon anymore" In Commentary on John 13.3 Origen explains that “aionios life” will he life in the next aeon, in Christ. but after “aionios life” there will come the evcntual apokatastasis, in which all will be not only in the Son but in the Father and the Holy Trinity. and God will be all in all: pg. 10
    _____________
    “After aionios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aionios life. For Christ is life but the Father, who is “greater than Christ [John 14:28], is greater than life” Selected Passages on Psalms 60 expresses the same idea: When one is perfected. one sojourns through the aeons in that tabernacle [i.e. Christ. qua aionios life].... For this tabernacle is aionios. This tabernacle, to be sure, is a state of perfection which makes it the Holy of Holies however, there is a stage that is beyond this and superior to rational creatures. In that state. rational creatures will be in the Father and the Son, or rather in the Trinity. This is why it is said. 'to sojourn in the aeons, and not ‘to dwell stably in the tabernacle.” That is to say, it is impossible to remain eternally in the aeons—Origen was well aware that aionios does not mean eternal (see Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan. Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in classical and Christian Authors [2nd ed.: Piscataway. N.J.: Gorgias. 2011: Logos Bible Software. 2013)—because the succession of aeons will come to an end with the eventual apokatastasis.
    In Homilies on Exodus 6.13 as well Origen foresees the end of all aeons: Whenever Scripture says. 'from aeon to aeon’: the reference is to an interval of time. and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says. 'in another aeon” what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us but surely established by God when Scripture speaks of aeons, these expressions cannot refer to absolute eternity, which belongs only to God; this also entails clearly that all biblical expressions such as “aionian fire””aionios death" or “aionios punishment” cannot be interpreted as meaning eternal life, death. or punishment. because there will come an end of all aiones, when there will be the “leap” from the aeons to God. The perfection that is reached at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis. is a coming to be in God. This corresponds to Evagrius's assertion that in the telos what is in us and that in which we must be in the future will be one and the same thing.
    Both the rendering of mwyn' with “number” and its rendering with aeon are possible. The following kephalaion seems to confirm that the latter translation is indeed possible. and perhaps even probable. pg. 11"
    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you sure you want to rely on the myths & opinions of Christ rejecting Jews & Pharisees?

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)
    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:
    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Are you sure you want to rely on the likes of Kittel/TDNT & BDAG:

    Do you also trust Kittel/TDNT when it speaks of the remedy for Spirit blasphemy. Or when it refers to the reconciliation of Col.1:16,20 as including demonic beings? Do you also blindly trust everything in BDAG? Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

    "...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

    Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

    The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
    They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rewrite it? Contradict UR assumptions? What are you talking about? All of your various types of attempts to explain away Origen's words in his commentary on John have failed. And I find it curious that you've gone to such effort re this one quote of his while generally ignoring so many other ancient Koine Greek occurrences of aionios, such as those listed here:

    Two Questions




    It does contain "the words under discussion":

    13.3.19 Τάχα δὲ καὶ πηδήσει μετὰ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν εἰς τὸν ὑπὲρ τὴν αἰώνιον ζωὴν πατέρα· Χριστὸς γὰρ ἡ ζωή· ὁ δὲ μείζων τοῦ Χριστοῦ, μείζων τῆς ζωῆς.

    http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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