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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take 8

    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    This should be so easy for you!

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?

    Please Note

    This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!
     
  2. Rubiks

    Rubiks armchair linguist

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    Actually "eternal punishment" can simply refer to an end result that is eternal. Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" Nobody is repeatedly being saved for all eternity.
     
  3. Rubiks

    Rubiks armchair linguist

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    Actually both English Hell and Old Norse Hell are derived from Proto-Germanic *Haljô (j is pronounced like English 'y')

    Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/haljō - Wiktionary
     
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  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What exactly are you complaining about? In post #556, above, you do exactly the same thing you are accusing me of. You state a premise at the beginning then you provide evidence you think supports that premise. How is that different than my posts? Are you familiar with the lexical fallacy?
    Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;


     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Rubiks: there is no such animal as "eternal punishment"! None, nada! Why don't you fill in the blanks for "everlasting punishment"? Be the very first, dear Rubiks.

    Search=endless torment

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    Search=unending punishment

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    Search=unending death

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    Search= eternal death

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    Search=eternal damnation

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    Search eternal punishment

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    Search=everlasting punishment

    Your search query has yielded one result. Matt.25.46
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    How does this quote from Vincent address, refute, rebut or disprove any of the 23 verses in my post?
    I was not aware that Vincent was the be all, end all authority on Koine Greek
    I think Plato, Aristotle and Philo trump Vincent.

    On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal (aion and aionios)*
    J. N. Darby.
    For fifty years he was strenuously engaged in original exposition of Scripture. The "Synopsis," recommended by Bishop Ellicott to the Gloucester theological students, acquired amongst J.N.D.´s adherents authority like that commanded by Wesley´s "Notes" amongst Methodists. Professor Stokes has described it as "the standard of appeal. Every departure from that model is bitterly resented" ("Expositor´s Bible," Acts 1, page 382). But nobody has protested against such use of his writings more than Darby himself, for whom truth was "a growing tree" (C. W., XXIII, page 191).
    _________
    Some passages from other authors, which prove that (while used in other senses, some of which are not found at all in Scripture), it does mean "eternity" and "eternal." I will afterwards examine some of the passages in Scripture in which it is found.
    Aion in Greek properly means "eternity." …the word is distinctly used by Plato, Aristotle, and Philo (and, according to the dictionaries, by Lycurgus, … as "eternal," in contrast with what is of time having beginning or ending, as its definite and proper meaning.
    Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; … .. [H]e says (p. 38): "… Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … …Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God .. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages.
    125 I now give Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): … It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." … it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios.
    126 As to Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity [aioni] nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. …. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force…. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4:18, “ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia.” Things that are for a time are in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.[2 Cor 4:18 on my list of 23. DA]
    [V]arious passages of Scripture to shew aion or aionios has the definite meaning of "for ever," or "eternal," in English. Again, Mark 3:29, oik echei aphesin eis ton aiona. What age? It is not in the age, as some have fraudulently translated it, but "has not ever forgiveness." It is not any particular age; the eis allows no such sense, and the ton would require some particular age, which even so would leave no sense to eis. It can only mean here "for ever."
    … The knowledge of the Father, and of Jesus Christ, whom He has sent, is life for the age. Is that all? The words of Jesus were remata zoes aioniou not tes zoes. It was that in its nature, not a specific period: indeed believers have it now. In Romans 6:22 the end is everlasting life. So that the life of that age, though no particular one is ever spoken of, is the end of the matter.
    But the eternal weight of glory is that of which the apostle speaks, when he says that the things are not for a time, proskaira, but eternal, aionia, [2 Cor] chapter 5:1 going on to say that he was looking for a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. … Before anything was created, this life was given us in Christ; putting it in its nature out of time.[2 Cor 5;1 in my list of 23, DA]
    That this life promised before the ages (chronon aionion), and which Christ is in His Person as with the Father, is only a life in one of these ages; and that when I read that the God of all grace has called us to His eternal glory by Jesus Christ, for which we may suffer a while, it is only a temporary glory of His for some special age; 1 Peter 5:10. That the glory of God, for which we hope in contradistinction to the peace and favour we possess, is only a temporary thing, for I suppose His own glory is the glory we boast in Romans 5. That language of exuberant apprehension is used, such as "ages of ages," and all the "generations of the age," or "eternity of ages," we know. But this does not alter the meaning of the word: aionios is properly the opposite to proskairos.[temporary/temporal][1 Pet 5:10 on my list of 23, DA]

    On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal


     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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  8. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    That's some heavy linguistic evidence there, more than I found in the OED, even if a certain poster will complain over and over that it does not apply. A comparative linguist might disagree.
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    G. Campbell Morgan

    g. campbell morgan books - Google Search

    F.W. Farrar

    books by f w farrar - Google Search

    Dr. Marvin Vincent

    marvin vincent books - Google Search

    Der Alter

    Your search query has found no results

    "The true way to be humble is not to stoop till you are smaller than yourself, but to stand at your real height against some higher nature that shall show you what the real smallness of your greatest greatness is." -Phillips Brooks-
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All your nonbiblical stuff you quote - Jewish Encyclopedia, BDAG, church fathers, your private opinions & interpretations - "is saying can you provide scripture? If not it is meaningless."
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yet Jesus & Scripture never use AIDIOS of the punishment of anyone.

    I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

    1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

    2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

    3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished (1 Cor.15:26-28), not being "for ever".

    4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

    "Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

    "Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): Christianity and Classical Culture

    5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

    6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

    7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com


    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  12. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    Your response demonstrates your complete inability to grasp the depth of Scripture necessary to see the truth of the salvation of all, Der Alter. You're among those I have for years called "point scorers", grounded in the sad state of belief that the most citations score the most points and win the "truth" award. In reality, there's almost no connection between citation points and truth. You are legion. Your presence is on every theology board on the internet. When the time comes I'll demonstrate that eternal hell, annihilationism and the forever and eternal decree of destruction to God's enemies are all perfectly compatible with the salvation of all. But I predict you'll keep your blinders on and stick to the ad infinitum, tiresome point-scoring of sterile literalism, despite the careful, rational exposition of not merely God's will but the amazing explanation for how He saves all. It's plastered all over the Bible, both Testaments in plain sight where the most rigid point-scorers can't see it.
     
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  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Bar: You are a rich treasure! The "point scorers" empty rhetoric falls so far short!

     
  14. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Thanks for your input. It is obvious that since the beginning, various views exist along with confusion about the afterlife. I've done an exhaustive study on this subject, research that I've used to write two chapters in my book, "Hell ... If I Know". I must say that outside the Bible, I traded lightly. With any doctrine, the closer to scripture we stay, the better.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <BW>Your response demonstrates your complete inability to grasp the depth of Scripture necessary to see the truth of the salvation of all, Der Alter. You're among those I have for years called "point scorers", grounded in the sad state of belief that the most citations score the most points and win the "truth" award. In reality, there's almost no connection between citation points and truth. You are legion. Your presence is on every theology board on the internet. When the time comes I'll demonstrate that eternal hell, annihilationism and the forever and eternal decree of destruction to God's enemies are all perfectly compatible with the salvation of all. But I predict you'll keep your blinders on and stick to the ad infinitum, tiresome point-scoring of sterile literalism, despite the careful, rational exposition of not merely God's will but the amazing explanation for how He saves all. It's plastered all over the Bible, both Testaments in plain sight where the most rigid point-scorers can't see it.<end>
    Thank you for this unsolicited, blatantly false, irrelevant, illogical opinion. Somewhere is this plethora of words there should be some examples given. Alas there are none. What you are accusing me of is exactly what many UR-ites do. For example, only yesterday one UR-ite, in this very thread, posted so many "point scoring" quotes from scripture, ECF, UR "experts"etc, etc, it took three posts, back to back, to hold it all.What many, maybe most, UR-ites don't understand, just as you pointed out, posting scripture etc. just to score points is meaningless.
    .....This is the situation we have here. For example, "poster A" posts 6-7 vss. where Greek word "*****" means "thing 'A'." And "poster B" says, "No it does not." and posts 6-7 vss. where the same Greek word means "thing B." "Poster B" has not provided any evidence that "*****" means only 'thing A' and cannot, possibly mean 'thing B'." That is the only thing that will resolve this dilemma.
    When Abraham Lincoln was criticized for the way he conducted the civil war he said,

    “If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.”
    How many angels are UR?
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You did notice that particular post was quoted from "Wiktionary?" Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every article has [edit] links. Anybody can post, add, delete, change anything without review.
    While OED is an excellent resource for determining the meaning of English words I'm afraid it does not help us with the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words. IIRC the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek.
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    In an attempt to expand your limited words I want to help you.

    Words for irrelevant=

    extraneous, immaterial, impertinent, inapplicable, inapposite, irrelative

    Words Related to irrelevant=

    incidental, peripheral, tangent, tangential

    dead, moot

    inconsequential, insignificant, unimportant

    empty, inane, meaningless, pointless, senseless, useless

    inappropriate, inapt, unsuitable

    extraneous, immaterial, impertinent, inapplicable, inapposite, irrelative
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: From the earliest days of the Church there have been various schools of thought & plenty of confusion with a capital C. We indeed need to tread lightly.The earliest disciples of our Lord exclaimed "how can these things be?" The Scriptures are the foundation, with the Author of the Scriptures anointing our eyes, ears and heart!
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Interesting conclusion. And it would be correct but for the fact that the word translated "salvation" is a noun not a verb. "being saved" is a verbal phrase.
     
  20. Rubiks

    Rubiks armchair linguist

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    So what?
     
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