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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    And "being saved: is in the present continuous tense of "be being"!

    The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England.

    A young Salvation Army girl, only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said,

    "Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?"

    The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face:

    "My dear,do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?"

    The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her!

    She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament.

    He had asked her, using three different tenses of the Greek verb: "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?"

    And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved."
     
  2. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was, so what is the north-European term "Hell" doing in that Book? Why was it used to replace perfectly understandable Hebrew and Greek words like sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus? I think it would be like classifying wolves as dogs. They're much like dogs aren't they? Then, jackals as dogs, coyotes as dogs and then foxes as dogs. Moving on, aren't cats a bit like foxes? Sure they are, so cats are dogs too...
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <LS>Yes, it was, so what is the north-European term "Hell" doing in that Book? Why was it used to replace perfectly understandable Hebrew and Greek words like sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus? I think it would be like classifying wolves as dogs. They're much like dogs aren't they? Then, jackals as dogs, coyotes as dogs and then foxes as dogs. Moving on, aren't cats a bit like foxes? Sure they are, so cats are dogs too...<end>
    How many average Christians, who have not studied Hebrew or Greek, know the meaning of sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus? How many of the English words in modern Bible versions appear in the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts? I have posted several times a study of the concept of "hell." Before, during and after the time of Jesus there was a belief ion a place of fiery eternal, unending punishment and they called it both "sheol" and "Ge hinnom." During the time of Jesus and the disciples they would have been exposed to that teaching. If there was no such place why would Jesus teach the following which supported the belief in a place which we call "hell?"
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    Matt 18:6, Matt 26:24 and Luk 10:12 speak of a punishment worse than death.

     
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take 9

    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    This should be so easy for you!

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?

    Please Note

    This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <FL>Take 9
    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??
    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.
    This should be so easy for you!
    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.
    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=
    1._____________________________________________________________?
    2._____________________________________________________________?
    3._____________________________________________________________?
    4._____________________________________________________________?
    5._____________________________________________________________?
    Please Note
    This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!<end>

    Once again I am not here to play games. This is a discussion forum if you wish to discuss any of my posts do so. If you have anything about Matt 25:46 you wish to discuss get on with it. Here is my discussion of Matt 25:46. Read it or don't. Discuss it or don't. I will not be bullied into playing word games with you.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    =================
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.;). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, there is no reason Jesus would that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.


     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    D.A. this is no game! The foundation for damning the mass of God's creation may be a game for you, but alas, the foundation for your dogma is rooted firmly in a parable of the Master of Reconciliation for which you are incapable & unwilling to respond!
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Write this to Sardis, to the Angel of the church. The One holding the Seven Spirits of God in one hand, a firm grip on the Seven Stars with the other, speaks: I see right through your work. You have a reputation for vigor and zest, but you're dead, stone dead.Up on your feet! Take a deep breath! Maybe there's life in you yet. But I wouldn't know it by looking at your busywork; nothing of God's work has been completed. Your condition is desperate."
     
  8. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    The post wasn't directed to you, so it being unsolicited is irrelevant. As to its purported lack of logic, falsehood or irrelevance, of course it is none of these things to you. But I suspect others who have argued with you might see some hint of truth to it.
    Examples of what? Your point scoring? Read virtually any one of your own posts. I rest my case.

    I don't disagree with you here. We all have exhibited tendencies to beat one another with proofs. But you, my friend, are among the elite in this regard. Again, reread your own stuff. The point scoring can be text proofing, but I recall you are the king of citation-scoring. I've seen you many times bombarding others with flurries of citations, suggesting your many sources "proves" the truth of your position. I don't need to or have time to reread these tiresome posts on a demand from you for examples. If you are a man of intellectual honesty you'll admit your crime straight out.

    Maybe we can demonstrate the uselessness of pointscoring with a small thought experiment, DA. Tell me, of what value is a careful study of the literal meaning of Scripture to arrive at the conclusion most Christian thinkers have long recognized, that Moses is a symbolic type of Christ in Deut 14? How strong is author intent in perceiving this symbol? What hermeneutic model is most useful in reaching this conclusion?
    Tel
     
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  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Bar: We must make allowances for his youth and inexperience, but alas, it is of no avail. We do however believe in One who raises the dead!


    “Parables are told only because they are true, not because the actions of the characters in them can be recommended for imitation. Good Samaritans are regularly sued. Fathers who give parties for wayward sons are rightly rebuked, Employers who pay equal wages for unequal work have labor-relations problems. And any Shepherd who makes a practice of leaving ninety-nine sheep to chase after a lost one quickly goes out of the sheep-ranching business.

    The parables are true only because they are like what God is like, not because they are models for us to copy. It is simply a fact that the one thing we dare not under any circumstances imitate is the only thing that can save us. The parables are, one and all, about the foolishness by which Grace raises the dead. They apply to no sensible process at all - only to the divine insanity that brings everything out of nothing.” - Robert F. Capon-
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Wow, if everyone will be saved, then why would the Bible be necessary at all, since one could follow any path, any religion or none at all? Why would Jesus have to die for our sins and tell us, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36
    He also said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one come to the Father except through Me." John 14:6

    There are hundreds of scriptures that deal with sin and evil and also blessings, forgiveness and mercy. Listen, the main purpose in life is to be reconciled to God through Jesus, not Mohammed, not Krishna, not Buddha, not L.Ron Hubbard or through any other person or religion or atheistic philosophy, nor by our own merits.
    "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13, 14

    Finally, it is clear that all through the Bible, we are presented with the idea that God will judge the world with fire and destruction. Humanity is leading towards it's precipice, at which point, some will be saved, a remnant 1/3 and the rest will suffer judgment. Btw, there is about 7.5 billion souls on the planet and about 2.42 billion Christians. That's about 1/3 -- what a coincidence. Judgment Day is coming and unless you put your faith in Jesus, you will die in your sins!
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Ronald: You evidently do not grasp what the Father of all fathers Plan is.

    It is NOT simply being saved (all of us) but the following>>>>>>

    Saved/reconciled/ "made righteous"

    Are you aware that the identical polus "made sinners" in Adam1 is the polus "made righteous" in the Last?

    Further: do you know what "to reconcile" means?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-

    Punishment=Kolasis

    Kolasis=

    Correction.

    Punishment.

    Penalty.

    Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

    Kolazo=

    1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

    2. To curb, check, restrain.

    3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

    4. To cause to be punished.
    Correction=

    Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

    Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

    Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

    Treatment of a specific defect.

    The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

    A rebuke for making a mistake.

    The act of punishing.

    Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

    The act or process of correcting.

    Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

    Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

    Amendation.

    Rectification.

    Rectification=

    To set right. To correct.

    To purify.

    To correct by removing errors.

    To adjust.

    A quantity applied by way of correcting.

    The act or process of correcting.

    Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

    Amendation.

    To correct something or make something right.

    The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

    To correct by calculation or adjustment.

    To adjust.

    To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

    The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

    “Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

    Fitted= Katartizo=

    To mend what has been broken or rent.

    To repair.

    To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

    To make one what he aught to be.

    " In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. "-C.S. Lewis
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn’s called the “hangmen’s whip” of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked over the sinner. But the kind of universalism in which I believe has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. – William Barclay-

    "Having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works"

    Reconcile=

    Definition of RECONCILE

    Reconcile= Katallasso=

    1.To change /exchange

    2. To change from enmity to friendship.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <BW>The post wasn't directed to you, so it being unsolicited is irrelevant. As to its purported lack of logic, falsehood or irrelevance, of course it is none of these things to you. But I suspect others who have argued with you might see some hint of truth to it.
    Examples of what? Your point scoring? Read virtually any one of your own posts. I rest my case.
    I don't disagree with you here. We all have exhibited tendencies to beat one another with proofs. But you, my friend, are among the elite in this regard. Again, reread your own stuff. The point scoring can be text proofing, but I recall you are the king of citation-scoring. I've seen you many times bombarding others with flurries of citations, suggesting your many sources "proves" the truth of your position. I don't need to or have time to reread these tiresome posts on a demand from you for examples. If you are a man of intellectual honesty you'll admit your crime straight out.

    Maybe we can demonstrate the uselessness of pointscoring with a small thought experiment, DA. Tell me, of what value is a careful study of the literal meaning of Scripture to arrive at the conclusion most Christian thinkers have long recognized, that Moses is a symbolic type of Christ in Deut 14? How strong is author intent in perceiving this symbol? What hermeneutic model is most useful in reaching this conclusion?<end>
    You cannot be serious. Here in the first sentence in this post, ,"The post wasn't directed to you, so it being unsolicited is irrelevant." Here is the first sentence of your post #572 which quoted my post that I was responding to, "Your response demonstrates your complete inability to grasp the depth of Scripture necessary to see the truth of the salvation of all, Der Alter." I don't think there is another member here using the SN "Der Alter" so your post was in fact directed to me.
    .....I have been active at this forum for almost 2 decades. I quickly learned the hard core proponents of heterodox religious group are so intensely indoctrinated that they are almost unreachable so most of what I post is for those people on the fringes who might be thinking about joining or quitting such a group. I also learned that the same arguments and proof texts are repeated over and over so I started saving my replies. As years went by I acquired more resources; lexicons, concordances, grammars etc. so I added to and revised and hopefully refined the replies. When I address something I am thorough.
     
  15. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    O the chagrin! You're right. I stand corrected. Rather than reread my previous post before last posting I mistakenly thought I had posted those sentiments to Fine Linen. Hey, look at the bright side; you score a major point here.
    Impressive posting credentials my friend. I, on the other hand, have been posting on many theology and philosophy boards--including this one a couple other times--since about 1995 or so, when there were only a handful of such boards on the web. And I might gently suggest that the orthodox religious groups are equally "intensely indoctrinated". Or do you suppose you stand like a shining beacon of free thought and truth in an ocean of error and falsehood?
    Yes, I'll grant you that. Thoroughness, however, has nothing whatever to do with truth. It has only to do with thoroughness. The Pharisees were thorough in their religious studies. Muslim holy men are thorough in their religious lessons and teaching.

    But of primary interest to me is the fact that in your last post you completely sidestepped the questions I asked of you: "Tell me, of what value is a careful study of the literal meaning of Scripture to arrive at the conclusion most Christian thinkers have long recognized, that Moses is a symbolic type of Christ in Deut 14? How strong is author intent in perceiving this symbol? What hermeneutic model is most useful in reaching this conclusion?"
    With that impressive list of reference books you just listed, this should be a cakewalk for you.
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Sin vs Grace

    "Sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn't sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

    Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin.

    If one man's sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God's gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do!

    There's no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift.

    The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

    Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!

    One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

    All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down.

    All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that's the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life - a life that goes on and on and on, world without end." -The Message-
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  17. BarWi

    BarWi New Member

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    Amen to this, great post!
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    D.A.: your word "scribble (ings)" applies to your "refined" replies. Much thanks for providing all of us with an enhanced vocabulary & much joy!

    In an effort to help you expand your amazing words, may F.L. suggest>>>>

    Words for nonsense=

    applesauce [slang], balderdash, baloney (also boloney), beans, bilge, blah (also blah-

    blah),blarney, blather, blatherskite, blither, bosh, bull [slang], bunk, bunkum (or buncombe),claptrap, codswallop [British], crapola [slang], crock, drivel, drool, fiddle, fiddle-

    faddle,fiddlesticks, flannel [British], flapdoodle, folderol (also falderal), folly, foolishness, fudge,garbage, guff, hogwash, hokeypokey, hokum, hoodoo, hooey,

    horsefeathers [slang],humbug, humbuggery, jazz, malarkey (also malarky), moonshine, muck, nerts [slang], nuts,piffle, poppycock, punk, rot, rubbish, senselessness, silliness, slush, stupidity, taradiddle(or tarradiddle), tommyrot, tosh, trash, trumpery, twaddle

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    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
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    Even though Love Omnipotent will save everyone, there is still the lake of fire to avoid. I'd rather not go there. And if Jesus hadn't died for the world's sins to take them away, then no one could be saved. Since He died for all & will take away the world's sin (Jn.1:29), the world will become sinless & saved.

    Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”

    Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
    Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)
    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

    Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).
    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:
    Google Books

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions

    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:



     
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