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Featured Question about eternal damnation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by YahEli, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Is that a fact?
    In the following twenty three [23] verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
    [18]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [19]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [20]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [23]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "By definition aion means eternity."

    Not according to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent !

    'Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).

    It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life.

    The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

    It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21.

    Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3.

    The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time.

    Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

    It does not mean something endless or everlasting.
     
  3. Jerry jerryson

    Jerry jerryson Jesusismyfriendmatthew420

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    All I know man is that I'm going straight fo hell if God is real and I'm exited man all the chill people go to hell because there atheist besides hitler... Hitler was not chill but I feel like everybody would ostracize him
     
  4. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Hel/Hell is a mythical place from Norse mythology. God has better plans for you than that, dood.
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Jerry: We have been made with a deep hole in our being. That hole can only be filled with Him!

     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can remove Romans 1:20 off of that list. Neither aion or aionios appear in Romans 1:20. And for a response to your lists see:

    What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire
    You believe both aion and aionios always mean "eternal", except when used in
    hyperbole. But you've never shown one scholar, church father, lexicon, or commentary during the past thousands of years in support of such a viewpoint. OTOH many such agree in opposing your theory.

    It is a fact that nowhere in all the books of the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament is aion or aionios ever said to be "defined", "equal to" or "understood" as - "eternal, everlasting, etc.". Biblical Hebrew & Greek were very capable of expressing such a definition if the Divine Author of the Sacred Scriptures believed such was - THE definition - of the word. But He didn't. Nowhere do we read anything like:

    "understand this: the word aionios means no end"
    "aionios is equal to endless"
    "aionios is the same as eternal"

    The verse list of Der Alter merely presents arguments that in his opinion prove that certain verses he has selected mean "eternal" in their particular context. As i've shown his is just one interpretation which does not take into account other interpretations he hadn't considered. As such, in each and every instance, they fail as "proof texts" for a meaning
    of "eternal" in their particular contexts.

    The fact is, both aion and aionios were often used of finite duration in the ancient Koine Greek of the times of the NT and early church fathers. Consider the following evidence:

    The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    The Greek text may be found here:
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

    In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

    ""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"
    " "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
    That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)
    "It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
    Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments
    " "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis
    Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":
    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
    Chapter Nine
    Which is verified by the following:
    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf
    The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”
    “…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]
    Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:
    "In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."
    "St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."
    "Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine
    Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net
    Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:
    "There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
    Hell's Destruction
    Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:
    "Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
    "1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
    "...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
    "...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
    CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


    continued next post...
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).


    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:


    Commentary on the Gospel According to John


    Greek text here:

    http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

    And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:


    "That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)


    Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:


    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika


    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).


    Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

    https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

    continued next post...

     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame
    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
    In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.
    Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:
    I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
    Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
    Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

    Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
    Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
    Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

    They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
    I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

    He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
    Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
    Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

    ’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
    Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
    Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

    And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
    In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

    When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
    I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
    From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

    Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
    For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
    Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

    Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:
    "The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
    "The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".
    "..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."
    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."
    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."
    https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf
    Word Studies in the New Testament
    Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:
    "...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."
    "Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."
    "As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).
    https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096


    continued next post:



     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That argument is extremely confusing. Who can understand what the author is trying to say? First he speaks of "aionas aionion" as meaning a "finite period" & then, in the same sentence, he refers to it being "forever and forever". Which is it, forever or finite?

    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

    And another more literal translation than yours:
    Young's Literal Translation
    and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.


    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @
    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:
    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
    Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
    Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
    "They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?
    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no "will not be forgotten" in any of these more literal translations of Jer.23:40:

    39 Therefore, lo, I--I have taken you utterly away, And I have sent you out, And the city that I gave to you, And to your fathers, from before My face,
    40 And I have put on you reproach eonian, And shame eonian that is not forgotten!" (CLV)

    39 Therefore, lo, I—I have taken you utterly away, And I have sent you out, And the city that I gave to you, And to your fathers, from before My face,
    40 And I have put on you reproach age-during, And shame age-during that is not forgotten! (YLT)

    Even John Gill suggests olam in Jer.23:40 may be finite:

    "contempt, and that for ever, or at least a long time, even for a series of ages; which has been their case ever since their destruction by the Romans, and still is;
    for this cannot be restrained to the short captivity of seventy years in Babylon; though this reproach began then, and they never recovered their former honour and glory;"
    [Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible]

    Furthermore:

    "No one can doubt that this passage speaks of the Jews, and predicts a punishment which God was to inflict upon them as a nation....not to be cast into hell or endless misery, but to be cast out of Judea, and from God's worship and service, and dispersed among the heathen or gentile nations."

    "....and to this day the ruins of Jerusalem, and the dispersed Jews afford evidence of its truth...as their fathers were, when God cast them out from His presence in their
    seventy years' captivity in Babylon" and the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in 70 AD. [p.163-164 @ The Universalist Preacher, Volumes 1-2]

    The Universalist Preacher.

    156ff at An Inquiry Into the Scriptural Import of the Words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus ...
    By Walter Balfour

    An Inquiry Into the Scriptural Import of the Words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna

    Jeremiah 24:9
    I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a reproach, a byword, a taunt, and a curse in all the places where I shall drive them.

    Jer 23:40 Cross References (9 Verses)
    St. John & St. Mary Magdalene
    Reproach (124 Occurrences)

    And yet Israel shall be saved:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Isa.45:21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
    22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
    23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall mencome; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
    25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nonsense! This is internet fantasy that many people accept as true with no, zero, none, credible, verifiable, historical evidence. That there is a word in some ancient culture that sounds like a word in a modern language does not prove that one word was derived from the other. There are more that 800 words in the KJV that have changed significantly in meaning or dropped out of use altogether. And beside this I have addressed this before with you and I don't recall getting any response.
     
  12. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to continue posting your conclusions at the beginnings of your posts, I don't care to discuss the matter with you. I thought you weren't going to read my posts anymore, anyway. Maybe I should just post more "internet fantasy" to see if you are paying attention.
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Lazarus: welcome to no books D.A. two words= "Nonsense" plus "irrelevant"!

    Dr. Marvin Vincent is "irrelevant" with his many books. D.A. has zero books but is an authority on the J.E. Why don't we add funny to his words or perhaps hilarious?

    "The true way to be humble is not to stoop till you are smaller than yourself, but to stand at your real height against some higher nature that shall show you what the real smallness of your greatest greatness is." -Phillips Brooks-
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  14. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    There is a rule against goading and flaming, but what do those terms mean, exactly? In any case, I will not be insulting or overly argumentative...YMMV.
     
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  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take 7

    You, the proponents of damning our Fathers vast majority to damnation will not fill in the blanks. Why??

    There is one (1) passage of Canon for "everlasting punishment" (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

    This should be so easy for you!

    According to the context of St. Matthew 25, and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

    The foundation for "everlasting punishment" Matt. 25=

    1._____________________________________________________________?

    2._____________________________________________________________?

    3._____________________________________________________________?

    4._____________________________________________________________?

    5._____________________________________________________________?

    Please Note

    This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Well, in case anyone is interested, hers is my research on the word "hel" and "hell":

    In the time of John the Apostle when he wrote down the Revelation, this word “hell” would have been in some archaic form, spoken by tribes with which the early Christians as yet had little or no contact. I got curious, so I looked in the OED again, and here are some old forms of “hell”:



    Old English (Anglo-Saxon) – hel

    Old Frisian – helle, hille

    Old Saxon – hellja, hella

    Middle Dutch – helle

    Old High German – helle

    Old Norse – hel, heljar

    Gothic – halja

    Original Teutonic – halja



    The reader may find it of interest that the word “hel” is found in the 1611 edition of the KJV (more on that a few pages ahead) and a few times in “Beowulf.”



    I read "Beowulf,” a bilingual version translated by Seamus Heaney. It was a great narrative, but I kept an eye out for "hell," and when I found any instances, checked the facing page for the Anglo-Saxon equivalent. I found "hell" twelve times in the English, and the Anglo-Saxon broke down like this:



    "helle" five times



    "hel" two times



    "hell" one time.



    Four times I could not find any Anglo-Saxon equivalent, maybe because I'm not an Anglo-Saxon scholar, but you get the gist, yes? Now, "Beowulf" has a Christian overlay, but the events and people are clearly pagan, so I went through this exercise to bolster my position that the word "hell" comes to us from the languages of pagan north Europe.



    Among the linguistic notes in the OED were some very old meanings, such as “literally, the coverer or hider,” (as a noun) and “to hide, conceal” (as a verb). The OED has dated examples of the use of most words, and for “hell,” the earliest was in an Old English document, dated about 825 AD. Note that both Old Norse and Old English shared “hel.” This was well after most of Christian Britain had been overrun by the then-pagan Saxons, Angles and Jutes. By this time the Roman Church had long possessed the Latin Vulgate Bible, using forms of “infernum” to replace “sheol” and “hades.” It was a fine word as used then, and originally meant “beneath” or “buried,” in the same sense as “sheol,” etc. The word only acquired the fiery meaning it has today after the rise of Hell theology. Of course, the idea and doctrine of Hell were already in existence by that date, but if you look into mythology, you will find that the Greek, Roman and and other pagan myths all support some form of Hell. It should not surprise you to learn that Christianity went from the Jews, to the Greeks, to the Romans, and on to the so-called Barbarians, to eventually reach what would become the English-speaking world. I think Christianity picked up a lot more than just converts along the way.



    Besides all that, I found that “Hel” was the name of the Norse goddess/ogress of their underworld, as well as the name of the supposed underworld itself, known as “Helheim,” meaning “House of Hel.” Interestingly, the roots of the word “Hel” hark back to the original meanings of “sheol” and “hades” – that is to say, “covered” and “hidden.” [source: Orel, Vladimir. 2003. A Handbook of Germanic Etymology, pp. 156, 168.]



    Now, this is almost funny – “Hel” is pagan, but “Hell” is part of the doctrine of many Churches. Do you see the problem, reader? Pagans will tell you that Christianity has “pagan DNA,” and here it is all too clear to see. We need to look a little further – most Christians seem to subscribe to the view that people die, and their “souls” go immediately to Heaven, Hell or maybe Purgatory. The Bible never says anything of the sort, but gives us the promise of the Resurrection. Now if we are already in Heaven, then doesn’t the Resurrection seem just a bit creepy? I’ve never heard anyone tell me how being in Heaven right now and later getting Resurrected are even compatible. As for Hell, it gets really absurd when you consider dying and going there. So you're dead. But...conscious torment in Hell requires you to be alive, right? But you're dead. But you must be alive to suffer Hell. But you're dead... There is no logical solution, unless you opt for the pagan Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and mainstream Christianity did just that. This concept, this doctrine, arose from the teachings of Socrates and Plato, and many early church fathers were Platonic in their outlook – Augustine is a prime example. See the next chapter for more on the nature of man, and what being alive really means.



    “Hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, as I said, “to cover.” My father told me about this years ago – if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench to below the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shoveling in the dirt previously dug out. Note – it is called “helling the potatoes,” though some came to call it “hilling,” to be polite. Now in the case of Korah and the others who fell alive into the pit which opened under them, they were helled by God, and died in the pit, in the grave, in sheol. An eternal, conscious abode in the Hell of Dante, Milton, and Baxter is not mentioned or implied, so there is no need or reason to interpret it so. Many passages in the Bible having to do with death are subject to the same interpretation.



    Picking up our historical thread again, the true Britons, now pushed into such corners as Wales and Cornwall, had a purer version of Christianity than the invading tribes were later converted to, as it had arrived in Britain in the first century. Now that is another story, but I will add that the Saxons, Angles and Jutes were, in turn, partly overrun by the Danes, and it is well known that the languages of Scandinavia left an imprint on the tongue that became English. Since the Norse had Hel, goddess and realm, and the Greeks had Hades, god and realm, I suspect the Norse (and related peoples) had long contact with the Greeks before they moved north and west – but again, that is another story. That, reader, is my take on how “hell” got into the English language, and some of my historical information may not be absolutely accurate, but the very similarity of “hel” and “hell” should send the serious Bible student on a word-study quest. Did you know that the original 1611 KJV contains “hel” twice? We can see it in Isaiah 14:15, from “sheol;” and “hel fire” in Mark 9:47, from “Gehenna.” I checked it on a photo-scan of the first printing of the 1611, and we can only scratch our heads and wonder if these two instances are a link from “hel” to “hell,” or if they are just two more of the typos the 1611 was famous for.



    It should also give pause to anyone who subscribes to the doctrine of Hell, as the very name of this Norse underworld exposes the pagan roots of Hell for all to see. Further, I am confident that this exploration of the linguistic basis of Hell knocks a major prop out from under ECT.
     
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  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Lazarus: We believe in the Reconciliation of the all, including our own D.A.! The road to the Goal will be somewhat longer for some of us, but in the end the Goal is the Source who will have His will fulfilled to the last degree.
     
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  18. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I think you're taking the wrong approach. You want to fix the problem by redefining words. But no major translation agrees with you, nor does the lexicon I used (TDNT). I think there are a number of passages that speak of eternal punishment. Mat 25:46 is one of the best examples, because of the parallelism between eternal punishment and eternal life.

    The issue isn't that the word means something else. Rather, the tradition used it less than literally. The NT statements about judgement are often based on OT imagery. But the eternal fires and smokes in the OT aren't still burning. And the Psalm's "eternal doors" were destroyed. As far as I can tell this doesn't mean that the words mean something other than eternal, but that the term was being used non-literally.

    Both Paul and the Rev envision a future in which all are in Christ. My reading of the Rev is that once those who won't live with God are put into the fire, the fire passes away. It's part of the former things.

    Jesus certainly speaks of punishment, in various ways from fire to the outer darkness. It's hard to tell whether people are punished and then eventually redeemed, or eventually destroyed. Perhaps both. Many Jews used Hades for temporary punishment and Gehenna for permanent. The Gospels use both, though Mark 7:47-48 may understand Gehenna as something equivalent to 1 Cor 3:13, if 7:49 is intended to be talking about the same thing.
     
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  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Hedrick:

    Search "eternal punishment"

    Your search query has yielded no results.

    Further: St. Matthew 25 is not speaking of "eternal punishment" but "everlasting punishment". Can you now show us what qualifies a goat for everlasting punishment?

    After you have filled in the blanks, if ever, can you disclose the difference between aionios and aidios?
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I am well aware that the word aionios is not in Rom 1:20 perhaps if you would actually read my post, instead of copy/pasting the same empty objections over and over, you might understand why I included Rom 1:20. I explained it very clearly

    That some anonymous scribe maybe in the 2nd or 3rd century said "eternal and more than eternal" only proves one thing that some anonymous scribe maybe in the 2nd or 3rd century said "eternal and more than eternal"

    All this stuff Origen is saying can you provide scripture? If not it is meaningless.
     
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