Predestination vs Free Will

eleos1954

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What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

I'm thinking that all of mankind was predestined to be under (go through) Christ, however individually we must make the choice (freewill)

Ephesians 1:5

…4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.…
 
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redleghunter

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John 12:32 has a greater emphasis then most realize. The Greek word in this verse is helkysō typically translated as draw. It can also be translated as drag as when fishermen drag/draw their nets in. God is the chief fisher of men who will drag all men to himself. If God is indeed sovereign and omnipotent, which he is, it is not difficult for him at all to accomplish his stated purpose, which is to drag/draw ALL men to himself.
Dragging all is the sovereign plan?

And people accuse Calvinists for being deterministic. ;)
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?
Salvation is all of God from start to finish..Hebrews 5:9
 
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Chris V++

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Maybe in the macro it's predestination but in micro we have our free will. In the macro, our history is foretold, and God had a plan for our salvation from the beginning. There are prophesies that have come to pass and some unfolding as we speak, and nothing comes as a surprise to God. But in the micro He assures us as individuals that He wishes all of us to come to repentance, which requires action on our part and implies free will. We can't be forced to repent and to love Him. We rebelled, just like a third of the angels.
 
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PaulCyp1

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There are Bible verses that can be made to appear to support both, by misinterpretation. However, both common sense and the Bible tell us that the Messiah came for the salvation of all the human beings God created, all of His beloved children. Can anyone really believe that God created certain people for the purpose of sending them to Hell? Why? The Bible tells us that God is Love. How could a loving God do such a hateful thing? And does predestination mean that those He predestined for salvation will be saved, even if they reject Him and live lives of sin? Also, if our salvation is predestined, what is the purpose of our short time on Earth? Just so He can observe us suffering and struggling for a few years, not knowing whether we personally have any chance of salvation? Is that a loving God?
 
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redleghunter

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Maybe in the macro it's predestination but in micro we have our free will. In the macro, our history is foretold, and God had a plan for our salvation from the beginning. There are prophesies that have come to pass and some unfolding as we speak, and nothing comes as a surprise to God. But in the micro He assures us as individuals that He wishes all of us to come to repentance, which requires action on our part and implies free will. We can't be forced to repent and to love Him. We rebelled, just like a third of the angels.
With hearts of rebellion, as you correctly note, how does such a rebellious heart come to Christ as a sorrowful repentant sinner in need of the Grace of God with faith in His Finished Work?
 
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redleghunter

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Maybe in the macro it's predestination but in micro we have our free will. In the macro, our history is foretold, and God had a plan for our salvation from the beginning. There are prophesies that have come to pass and some unfolding as we speak, and nothing comes as a surprise to God. But in the micro He assures us as individuals that He wishes all of us to come to repentance, which requires action on our part and implies free will. We can't be forced to repent and to love Him. We rebelled, just like a third of the angels.
With hearts of rebellion, as you correctly note, how does such a rebellious heart come to Christ as a sorrowful repentant sinner in need of the Grace of God with faith in His Finished Work?
 
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redleghunter

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Can anyone really believe that God created certain people for the purpose of sending them to Hell?
Good point. Who exactly makes that claim? Please provide citations in support of this.

Thanks
 
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Chris V++

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God controls our free choices thorough the reasons we base our choices on.
I don't understand. So I have choice for dinner tonight between chicken soup, pizza, or pork chops. I'm choosing chicken soup because I currently have a head cold. Are you saying God is controlling that choice of soup by allowing me this head cold?
And so if I now choose pizza I'm doing so because God controlled my choice by virtue of my having to respond to your post and thus now I have to choose pizza against my better judgement to prove a point that I do have free will?
 
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Dave L

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I don't understand. So I have choice for dinner tonight between chicken soup, pizza, or pork chops. I'm choosing chicken soup because I currently have a head cold. Are you saying God is controlling that choice of soup by allowing me this head cold?
And so if I now choose pizza I'm doing so because God controlled my choice by virtue of my having to respond to your post and thus now I have to choose pizza against my better judgement to prove a point that I do have free will?
You freely and earnestly respond to reasons beyond your control that God uses to control you. We don't know why you have a cold but God works all things for our good.
 
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Monna

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What if we're captives of our own preconceptions?
How should we interpret the "us" and "we" in the context of Paul's letter to the church at Ephesis?
In the highly individualised "west" it seems automatically to refer to "us" as individuals. But in other, more community oriented societies, it would mean "us" as a collective.

So one way of looking at the Ephesians 1:15 would be:
"He predestined all who (individually) chose to become his followers/his church, to be adopted as his children, because that is what he wanted."

put another way, the adoption as children was/is a consequence of (freely) joining the Body of Christ, becoming a believer. John put it: whoever believed in him (Jesus) he gave the right to be called the children of God. (John 1). As far as I know, this is the only recorded RIGHT you have as a believer. It comes with adoption as his children. But it is preconditioned on you believing.

I'm always surprised why so many people have difficulty with free will and predestination. When the Hebrews were moving into Canaan, God told them that they would not have to fight; God would send hornets ahead of them, and make the current residents willing to go. Did God by the power of his MIGHT chuck them out? No! But he made them willing to go. There is a subtle difference.

We know that NO ONE seeks God! No one comes to me, said Jesus, unless the Father draws him. But God also wants everyone to be saved. Even in the OT He says he finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The concept in Rev 3, of Jesus standing at the door knocking, waiting to be invited in, is usually presented as an individual, personal, affair, when in fact, according to the context he is speaking to the congregation, as a congregation, at Laodicea.

If God was so loving, that he gave his only Son for us, is there anything else that he would withold from us? asked Paul. No. So whosoever will may come, may respond to God's call, God's initiative; but when you do there are a whole bunch of things, that he has decided a long time ago, that you will get in the bargain ... including the right to be called the children of God ... the adoption as his children. What he has predestined, is what he has determined to give, or to do for, all who freely choose him. He didn't say "I have decided to adopt Monna out of a whole bunch of people (and Monna has no real choice in the matter)" Rather he says, "I have decided that if and when Monna chooses to believe in Jesus as Lord, I will provide forgiveness of sins, reconciliation, membership in His "body," direct access to the Father, ... plus plus plus ... and even adoption as my child. And the same applies to everyone else who believes in me." He has predetermined the contents of the package that we get when we choose to believe and follow him.

I can imagine there will be those who disagree with this way of seeing it. And I can almost guess which Scriptures they will quote. But this, at least for now, gives me a totally satisfying explanation of this apparently "never-ending dilemna."

But remember the starting point too. YOU never ever take the initiative; it is ALWAYS He would draws you. It is entirely up to you to respond. But you will never ever ever be able to say to God ... I deserve the credit, it has happened because of me. (Eph. 2:9)
 
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With hearts of rebellion, as you correctly note, how does such a rebellious heart come to Christ as a sorrowful repentant sinner in need of the Grace of God with faith in His Finished Work?

My own hardened heart was softened. The truth about sin and the need for Jesus was preached to me, and the more I tried to deny it, the lower I sank and the more miserable I became, but the Spirit never gave up on me and thru circumstances and coincidences compelled me to repentance in ways where I couldn't logically persist in denying the reality of it and in one single solitary instant I was compelled to surrender and knew how much I was loved and was forever changed. It felt as if a parasite was ripped from off of my soul.
 
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You freely and earnestly respond to reasons beyond your control that God uses to control you

What if we're captives of our own preconceptions?

These quotes remind me of the Greek 'character is destiny' idea.

'“Character is destiny,” is a quote attributed to the Greek philosopher, Heraclitus. This quote implies that destiny, or fate, is not a predetermined outside force, but that one’s future, or destiny, is determined by his own inner character. '

I heard a preach illustrate a similar point with weakness of character using David as an example. Since David cheated with Bathsheba he had no moral ground to stand on to punish his son Amnon for raping Tamar, which ultimately lead to Absalom having Amnon killed and subsequent rebellion.

My character is such that I might believe soup might actually ameliorate the symptoms of the common cold, which is shaped by my preconceptions about nutritional benefits of chicken soup.

I ts easy to see how God can use our character strengths and weaknesses for or against us to shepherd us where He wants us to be.
 
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SaintCody777

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I hold to what is called classical Arminianism. This means I hold to total depravity, which is very much the same view on the state of humanity as Calvinism.
Man does have free will to choose Christ IF AND ONLY God's grace FIRST falls upon the sinner.
Otherwise, he still has free will. But only to sin because he loves to do it and does not want to give it up (John 3:19-21).

The straw man that Calvinists like to make about Arminianism is believe it or not, the Charles Finney influenced Holiness Movement. Before Finney, even Wesleyan Arminians held to total depravity. But Charles Finney, who denied original sin, taught that man has a free will to get to Christ, that is, in a way akin to Semi Palegianism.
 
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What are your opinions on predestination? Is it Biblical that God chose every single person who would come to faith in Jesus? Or do we all have freewill and every single person alive has the opportunity to find Christ? Needless to say, there are verses in the bible that support both views. So... idk which one to go with... what do you think?

I talk about it in the link below.
The Secrets of The Gospel: Predestined and Free will
 
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JIMINZ

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God's will is to draw all men to himself. Will he not sovereignly accomplish what he purposes to do? If God's will is to draw all men to him, why aren't all men saved? After all, it's God's will isn't it?

If it is as you say, how then does this lay out?

Rev. 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev. 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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JIMINZ

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Not everyone will make it.

Mat 7:13
13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
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