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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
marineimaging
Texas Baptist now living in Colorado
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Based on this question I would ask you, are you attending a bible believing, bible teaching church? Because these are mens questions you are asking and in our church these kinds of questions are taught so frequently they don't even come up, except by new people coming to join our church after leaving a feel good or prosperity or hellfire and damnation church. To put it in a nutshell, you are asking a question other people can't answer and in doing so, are trying to challenge God in why He created all of all the way He did. And again, you are asking men to answer. Ask God by searching His world and His council. Not men. We are the ones who mess it up.
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Dear Marine: Does your bible believing church teach unending torment by our heavenly Father for unbelievers? What does your bible believing church believe "damnation" is?
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Catherine Marshall
"..Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law--is compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith, a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a "lost sinner" it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found. -Catherine Marshall- (Beyond Ourselves)
Note
Mrs. Smith= Hannah W. Smith
"..Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law--is compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith, a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a "lost sinner" it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found. -Catherine Marshall- (Beyond Ourselves)
Note
Mrs. Smith= Hannah W. Smith
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Gahanna
There are 66 books in my bible,
1,189 chapters
31,102 verses
Gahanna is mentioned 12 times in 12 verses
11 Times by Jesus, 4 of which are parallel verses so it reality Jesus only mentions Gahanna 7 times.
And once by James which makes 8 times out of 31,102 verses. That =.0002572182%
Does no one else find this rather disturbing if our eternal destiny is actually associated with this word?
One would think that if our eternal destiny was associated with Gahanna it would be the most prevalent word especially throughout the New Testament. Yet not one apostle of Jesus ever uses this word.
Strange indeed that not one apostle of Jesus ever used this word if our eternal destiny was associated with it.
Even stranger is that so many build a doctrine around a word used only .0002572182% of the time in scripture, which is never used by any of Jesus apostles.
How can the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation be said by so many to be the doctrine of the apostles and the early church when not once did any of the apostles ever mention Gahanna.
Time for Gods children to wake up and realise God through Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL HUMANITY.
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Faith Unites
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Absolutely, but the point he was making was that in his opinion, people will decide to be there. You might stop and say "hey thats just dumb, who would choose to go to hell?", but you would have to ignore the stubbornness of the human heart to think that everyone wants follow God. Many will simply refuse to believe or bow because they are their own god.
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aiki
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No, why should it? A thing being in a minority in some respect doesn't make it necessarily suspect or of less value or importance. We highly value gold, for instance, precisely because there is relatively little of it. There is only a single President of the United States at a given time, but this doesn't diminish how very important he is - quite the opposite, actually. At one time, there was only a lone man who thought the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the reverse. Although his belief was in a severe minority, he was still correct. It doesn't follow, then, that simply because something is not represented well in terms of numbers that it is not, therefore, important or true.
Why? Jesus certainly didn't hide the eternal danger of hell from those to whom he spoke. Why, though, should he have made it his number one preoccupation? Was his purpose in coming to earth and preaching just to frighten people into heaven? No. He came, first of all, as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of mankind, he came as the Redeemer and Saviour, not as a messenger of doom and purveyor of eternal damnation. His goal was to reconcile sinners to their holy God, not verbally dangle them over the flames of hell. But, hell is a terrible reality and so Jesus mentioned it several times.
They may not have used the word "Gehenna" itself in speaking of the eternal punishment of the unrepentant wicked, but they did speak of it, nonetheless:
Romans 2:5-9
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
Philippians 3:18-19
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame--who set their mind on earthly things.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7 ...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Peter 2:17
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Jude 1:13
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Revelation 2:11
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '
And so on.
Nope. See above.
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Is what man wills greater then the will of the Father who will have all men to be saved?
In other words do you believe man gets what He wants but the Father does not get what He wants?
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And yet not one of His apostle ever mentions Gahanna, that in itself is very revealing.
So tell me how these apostles taught Gahanna if not one ever mentioned it?
How can anyone maintain that the apostles taught Gahanna if they did not mention it?
Yes he did come as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of mankind, but according to your doctrine he was a great big failure, as God through Jesus started something and you are saying he will fail to do that which he started.
Thus your belif is no different then those below who mock God, saying He began to build but is not able to finish.
For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Did God sit down and count the cost for the salvation of the world?
After He laid the foundation, Jesus Christ, for that salvation is He unable to finish what He started?
According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.
Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.
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That is just your bias assumptions of what those scriptures say.
Anyone can quote scripture, that does not mean they understand what the scripture is actually saying.
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