BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: Actually friend the word in koine is thelo. God wills all mankind to be saved. This goes far beyond wants to His will, the Will of all little wills prevails! Again: we do not choose to follow Him.

"You did not choose Me, I chose you"

I politely disagree my friend. Your quote from Jesus to His 11 faithful apostles does not support Calvinism nor universalism. It is no secret that Jesus approached the apostles. They did not approach him. So yes they were chosen to spread the gospel. Although Jesus also chose Judas knowing he would later betray Him. If you are in support of irresistible grace let’s back up a few verses in John 15 to verses 1-10. Why does Jesus warn His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him and explain the consequences if they have no choice? If they are unable to turn away from Him what is the point of this message?
 
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Pneuma3

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You have completely ignored my point about the number or frequency of a thing not being necessarily indicative of its importance. Why is that? And I did point out that while the apostles never used the actual word "Gehenna" in their various letters constituting the NT, the concept of eternal punishment after death is clearly spelled out in them.

Something as important as our eternal destiny should be spoken of in ever increasing teaching. Yet it is NOT. The apostles NEVER ever mention Gahanna so you and others have no right to say that ECT or annihilation are that which the apostle taught. And eternal punishment is NEVER used in scripture as the Greek word for eternal is aidios and it is NEVER used in conjunction with the punishments of God. The word aionios is the word used and it is of limited duration of unknown time.

??? Failure? How so? God offers the gift of salvation to mankind in Christ. But it is a gift, not a forced conscription. Christ did successfully atone for the sins of all mankind (remember, he said, "It is finished"), but the receiving of that atonement each of us is responsible for individually. If we will not take it, that is on us, not God.

Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe, this command and teach. (you do not teach what we are commanded to teach, you teach another doctrine.)

He is not just the atonement for ours sins but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you have any understanding what saviour and atonement mean? and that each is applied to the whole world/ALL MEN?



What are you talking about? The Atonement was fully and perfectly accomplished. Just as God intended, salvation is now available to any and all who will take it. Where's the failure?

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


Unable to what? Save everybody? How could He do that without contravening our free agency? And if He does contravene our free agency, how can it be said that we love Him? Love cannot be forced, it must be freely given.

Did He contravene your will? What makes you more special then anyone else? You seem to think freewill is some kind of obstacle to God, but if it was God would never have given it to us.


What an odd perspective - and unbiblical.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

and the last enemy that is made his footstool is DEATH.

You seem to think God will abide sin and death for all eternity, for if there is ECT then God eternally abides with sin and death.

Thus how are all the works of the devil destroyed if those works are eternal?

Your doctrine mocks God saying He started something but is not able to finish what He started.

It is a teaching that God misses His mark, thus a teaching that God can and will indeed sin.
 
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FineLinen

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I politely disagree my friend. Your quote from Jesus to His 11 faithful apostles does not support Calvinism nor universalism. It is no secret that Jesus approached the apostles. They did not approach him. So yes they were chosen to spread the gospel. Although Jesus also chose Judas knowing he would later betray Him. If you are in support of irresistible grace let’s back up a few verses in John 15 to verses 1-10. Why does Jesus warn His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him and explain the consequences if they have no choice? If they are unable to turn away from Him what is the point of this message?

DearBNR: You can politely disagree as you wish. Every follower of the Lamb has a personal encounter with the Master. That encounter does not begin with us. I have no idea what drew you to the Lord Jesus Christ, but that draw is very strong on the God ward side of helkuo....."I will draw/drag off with power all mankind unto Me".
 
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Pneuma3

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DearBNR: You can politely disagree as you wish. Every follower of the Lamb has a personal encounter with the Master. That encounter does not begin with us. I have no idea what drew you to the Lord Jesus Christ, but that draw is very strong on the God ward side of helkuo....."I will draw/drag off with power all mankind unto Me".

Amen brother, as love can never fail (God is Love) thus Gods love is irresistible and will be shown as such in the aionios/ages to come.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: Actually friend the word in koine is thelo. God wills all mankind to be saved. This goes far beyond wants to His will, the Will of all little wills prevails! Again: we do not choose to follow Him.

"You did not choose Me, I chose you"

Will

G2309


Lemma:

θέλω


Transliteration:

thélō


Pronounce:

eth-el-eh'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to will, have in mind, intend a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose b) to desire, to wish c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Here are a few other examples of thélō being used.

“And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:35‬

“And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:38‬

“No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:39‬

Now which makes more sense? Does God desire everyone to repent and be saved or does He cause or will everyone to be saved? First we know not everyone will be saved. Surely God didn’t fail. Not everyone is written in the book of life.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬

God did not send Jesus to save the world. He sent Jesus so the world might or may be saved. He gave everyone the opportunity for salvation. Not only a select group.
 
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BNR32FAN

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DearBNR: You can politely disagree as you wish. Every follower of the Lamb has a personal encounter with the Master. That encounter does not begin with us. I have no idea what drew you to the Lord Jesus Christ, but that draw is very strong on the God ward side of helkuo....."I will draw/drag off with power all mankind unto Me".

Bless you I absolutely agree friend that God undoubtably called me to Him. But I also had to adhere to His calling and abide in Christ. Your not answering the questions I’ve asked. Why did Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him and tell them the consequences if they do not abide? What is the point of that message if they cannot turn away from Him and they have no choice but to abide?
 
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Faith Unites

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Is what man wills greater then the will of the Father who will have all men to be saved?
In other words do you believe man gets what He wants but the Father does not get what He wants?
in regards to a relation with God, mans will is equal to Gods will. God will never force someone to follow him. At the eod, its up to the man. Relationships are two way streets
 
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BNR32FAN

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in regards to a relation with God, mans will is equal to Gods will. God will never force someone to follow him. At the eod, its up to the man. Relationships are two way streets

Amen there are examples of many chosen people who have rebelled against God. All the scriptures pertaining to abiding and obedience would be pointless if only a select group is chosen and grace is irresistible. God desires our love and love is a gift given freely. It’s the only thing we have that is of any value to Him.
 
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Faith Unites

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Dear Faith: A couple of questions for you.

1. "Is human will stronger than the drawing power of God's love?"

2. "Will God ever overrule the choice that a person makes?"

3. "Does circumstantial pressure from God make a human into a robot?"

4. "Can God change a person's heart without de-humanizing her or him?"

5. "Can God cause a person to change his or her thinking so as to choose otherwise than he or she had previously thought?"

6. "Can anyone withstand God's will forever?"

7. "If our horizon or world view is a priori that the human will is inviolate, do we not make the human will greater than God's will?"

8. "Can God make friends out of those who adamantly refuse to be so without robbing them of their humanity?"
1. It can be
2. No
3. No
4. Not sure what this means but sound like no
5. Yes
6. No
7. No
8. No
 
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Faith Unites

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Something as important as our eternal destiny should be spoken of in ever increasing teaching.
Disagree here. Just guessing here, but I imagine they didnt spend much time talking about hell because they were too busy telling people about Christ. You dont win hearts with fear. TBF the discussions of heaven/hell are irrelevant. The message of the Gospels is that the Kingdom of God is here and now. We dont have to wait for death to to join God's Kindom. We go through the process of sanctification not to get into heaven, but rather because we are being conformed to the image of Christ now. God will decide what is right in the end so why spend time bothering with discussion over hell. It does us no good today.
 
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FineLinen

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Will

G2309


Lemma:

θέλω


Transliteration:

thélō


Pronounce:

eth-el-eh'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to will, have in mind, intend a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose b) to desire, to wish c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Here are a few other examples of thélō being used.

“And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:35‬

“And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:38‬

“No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:39‬

Now which makes more sense? Does God desire everyone to repent and be saved or does He cause or will everyone to be saved? First we know not everyone will be saved. Surely God didn’t fail. Not everyone is written in the book of life.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬

God did not send Jesus to save the world. He sent Jesus so the world might or may be saved. He gave everyone the opportunity for salvation. Not only a select group.

Dear BNR: Have it your way my friend: mighta coulda, woulda. For those who have "decided" to "follow Jesus my good wishes. I am not in that group, coulda been, mighta been, "BUT GOD".

John 3:17 - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 
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FineLinen

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Bless you I absolutely agree friend that God undoubtably called me to Him. But I also had to adhere to His calling and abide in Christ. Your not answering the questions I’ve asked. Why did Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him and tell them the consequences if they do not abide? What is the point of that message if they cannot turn away from Him and they have no choice but to abide?

Dear BNR: The entire walk with the Lord is in the present tense expression of "be being". I am saved, I am in the process of being saved, I will be saved. Abiding in Him is an ongoing work of love and grace radiating from Him, through Him & for Him.

He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all

 
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FineLinen

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1. It can be
2. No
3. No
4. Not sure what this means but sound like no
5. Yes
6. No
7. No
8. No

Dear Faith: thank you for taking the time to respond. As far as #1 response, I would like to meet the foulest of the foul who ultimately stands supreme in the Presence of the flaming swords swirling in every direction of the Living One!
 
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FineLinen

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in regards to a relation with God, mans will is equal to Gods will. God will never force someone to follow him. At the eod, its up to the man. Relationships are two way streets

Dear Faith: in the end, the Source is the Goal! Please sing along with post #62.

God is the Source, the Guide & te Goal of the ta panta
 
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BNR32FAN

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Dear BNR: The entire walk with the Lord is in the present tense expression of "be being". I am saved, I am in the process of being saved, I will be saved. Abiding in Him is an ongoing work of love and grace radiating from Him, through Him & for Him.

He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all

Ok that gave me the definition of abiding but that didn’t answer the question Why did Jesus tell His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him if they cannot turn away? If grace is irresistible and salvation is eternally secure why did He say to them

““Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5-6

There is no doubt these men believed and Jesus knew that. If irresistible grace and eternal security is true then this message is completely pointless. It would be like saying don’t jump so high that you touch the sun because you’ll get burned to death. It’s pointless because it’s impossible, can’t happen. Jesus had a reason for this message. Salvation is given to those who endure to the end. It is not the result of a one time act but a way of life. God gives us the ability to overcome temptation but we must choose to exercise that ability and abide in Him. This is what being born again, becoming a new creation, and walking in the Spirit is all about. Look at all the people chosen by God who rebelled against Him. The benches Bible constantly reminds us of their disobedience and how they hardened their hearts against God’s will despite having been chosen by God. God knew their disobedience even before they were created. So why did He choose people who would rebel against Him? Perhaps to show that He is just but I think also to show that we have free will. We have the ability to choose eternal life or eternal death and there are consequences for our actions and decisions.
 
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ClementofA

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“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬

God did not send Jesus to save the world. He sent Jesus so the world might or may be saved. He gave everyone the opportunity for salvation. Not only a select group.

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20).

Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.
 
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ClementofA

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place of torment
He didn't want his five brothers to join him in that place.
He did not ask to go back to sleep.
He cried out for mercy upon him.
There is no sleep in hell.
The wicked have no hope.

lake of fire
no rest
tormented day and night for ever and ever

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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