Question about eternal damnation

[FineLinen]

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampsh). First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13 . Under the earth (katacqoniwn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

Philippians 2:10 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Jonathan Mitchell New Testament=

::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

"For this reason, God also lifts Him up above (highly exalts Him; elevates Him over) and by grace gives to Him (graces on Him) the Name -- the one over and above every name! --

to the end that within The Name: Jesus! (or: in the name of {or: belonging to} Jesus), EVERY KNEE -- of the men upon the heavens (of those belonging to the super-heavens) and of the men existing upon the earth and of the men dwelling down under the ground (or: pertaining to subterranean ones) -- may bend (should bow) in worship or prayer,

and EVERY TONGUE may speak out the same thing (should openly agree, confess and acclaim) that Jesus Christ [is] Lord [= Yahweh?] -- into [the] glory of Father God (or: unto Father God’s reputation)!"

“I could more easily contain Niagara Falls in a tea cup than I can comprehend the wild, uncontainable love of God.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The punishment should fit the crime.

Agreed.

But some might see hell as even being unfair. Some have thrown down the metaphorical card so as not to deal with it. But I believe there are other possible explanations.

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person were being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here.

Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.

Possibility #2. The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).​

As for the passage of time in hell:

I find it also inconsistent that God with God's fair justice that He would torment folks for longer periods of time consciously just because they lived in a different point in history, too. I believe the answer is a "Partial Soul Sleep." Meaning, that the wicked go through long periods of sleep in hell and they are awakened at key period points in time. I believe it is possible that there are...

Two different stages of death (in reference to passing on).

#1. Sleep in reference to passing on
(i.e. A state of death whereby one's soul and spirit is unconscious or unaware of anything while dead).

#2. Death or Dead in reference to passing on
(i.e. A state of death usually where one is aware on a conscious level of the afterlife like the Rich man who was in Torments).​

This makes sense because there are many people who die and come back to life and do not remember anything.

Granted, this does not mean other people's visions of heaven or hell are real if they died by any means. The Bible is our authority and not some person who had a vision later on.

Also, verse 4 says, "When Jesus heard that, he said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."" (John 11:4).

Did you catch that? Jesus said this sickness is not unto death. Yet, Lazarus did indeed die. Even a little girl that Jesus brings back from the dead, He also distinguishes between sleep (i.e. a sleep type death) and regular death, too. For Jesus's words cannot contradict each other. If Jesus said Lazarus's sickness was not unto death and he died, then he would have lied because he died. But if Jesus was referring to two different states of death (one being unconsciously aware like sleep, and the other being consciously aware of the afterlife), then there would be no contradiction. While this is not Biblical fact, this does appear to fit a possibility of how things may be in hell. In either case, I know GOD is going to deal fairly His justice upon the wicked. For our GOD is fair and good.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Genesis records God making the Cosmos, as we see in 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” This is our first clue, for there is no mention of Him also creating Hell. Looking forward, to the very brief creation account in the Gospel of John (1:3), we read, “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” Now this is vital and foundational. Genesis implies that God didn’t make Hell, and John states that if God did not, then no one else did either. Further, I often find in the Scriptures, the phrase “heaven and earth,” again and again, without Hell, reinforcing Genesis 1:1 many times over. Two more witnesses of heaven + earth can be found where the new Heaven and the new Earth are spoken of – see Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22. Note that there is no mention of a new Hell, or even an old one.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Now, further on in the creation account of chapter 1, God makes a number of pronouncements:

“Let there be light…” (verse 3)

“Let there be a firmament…” (verse 6)

“Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place…” (verse 9)

“Let the earth bring forth grass…” (verse 11)

“Let there be lights in the firmament…” (verse 14)

“Let the waters bring forth...” (verse 20)

“Let the earth bring forth…” (verse 24)

“Let us make man in our image…” (verse 26)

In this list of eight pronouncements, there is no “Let there be a Hell…” Such a thing would have been at odds with what God had created so far – foundation on foundation, resulting in life and good, and then a place of destruction? It’s jarring to even consider.

 

[Lazarus Short]

We see, if we read the creation text correctly, that the cosmos is a hierarchy of God and His creation - not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the Earth and the souls of men as a prey between them. Those who believe in the Powers of Darkness (so called) should note that God made darkness too, and it is simply where Light has not penetrated. The rest is mostly superstition reinforced by dangerous nocturnal animals and scary stories. That there is no mention of God making Hell in the creation story is quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.

 

[aiki]

Dear Aiki: Why don't you direct me to the passages of Canon that speak of "eternal hell" for a start. From there I will pontificate you into a study of aionios and aidios.

Are you insinuating that the Bible doesn't teach that the punishment of hell is eternal? If you are, then you must deal with the following:

Matthew 25:46
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

You are free to pontificate on aionios and aidios as you like. I doubt very much, though, that you will say anything that I haven't encountered many times from others of your perspective already. Give it your best shot, though.

 

[FineLinen]

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampsh). First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13 . Under the earth (katacqoniwn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

Philippians 2:10 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Jonathan Mitchell New Testament=

::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

"For this reason, God also lifts Him up above (highly exalts Him; elevates Him over) and by grace gives to Him (graces on Him) the Name -- the one over and above every name! --

to the end that within The Name: Jesus! (or: in the name of {or: belonging to} Jesus), EVERY KNEE -- of the men upon the heavens (of those belonging to the super-heavens) and of the men existing upon the earth and of the men dwelling down under the ground (or: pertaining to subterranean ones) -- may bend (should bow) in worship or prayer,

and EVERY TONGUE may speak out the same thing (should openly agree, confess and acclaim) that Jesus Christ [is] Lord [= Yahweh?] -- into [the] glory of Father God (or: unto Father God’s reputation)!"

“I could more easily contain Niagara Falls in a tea cup than I can comprehend the wild, uncontainable love of God.”

Perfunctory=

Definition of PERFUNCTORY

Genuflections=

Definition of GENUFLECTIONS

 

[FineLinen]

Are you insinuating that the Bible doesn't teach that the punishment of hell is eternal? If you are, then you must deal with the following:

Matthew 25:46
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Dear Aiki: I do not insinuate! There is no such thing as "eternal hell" in the Scriptures!!!

After you post what are the reasons for "everlasting punishment" according to the context in St. Matt. 25 we will proceed forward.

The foundation for "everlasting punishment"=

1.________________________________________________________________________?

2._________________________________________________________________________?

3.__________________________________________________________________________?

4.___________________________________________________________________________?

5.___________________________________________________________________________?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Aiki: Why don't you direct me to the passages of Canon that speak of "eternal hell" for a start.

From there I will pontificate you into a study of aionios and aidios.

Search= Eternal Torment=

"Your search query for 'eternal torment' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again."

Search= Eternal Separation=

"Your search query for 'eternal separation' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again."

Search= Eternal Hell=

"Your search query for 'eternal hell' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again."

Search= Everlasting Hell=

"Your search query for 'everlasting hell' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again."

Search= Everlasting death=

"Your search query for 'everlasting death' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again."

Search= Eternal death=

"Your search query for 'eternal death' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again."

Search= Everlasting Punishment =

1 entry found Matt. 25.46

 

[aiki]

Yes, Gehenna was and is real - it was the town dump of Jerusalem, and is today a park-like place that you can visit. Jesus' mention of Gehenna was referring to the town dump, but like so many things in the Bible, was subverted by theo-illogical bias.

Jesus never refers to Gehenna as the "town dump." In the eleven times he mentioned Gehenna, Jesus described a place very different from that of a "town dump."

Matthew 5:22
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29-30
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 18:8-9
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43-48
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Luke 12:5
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:15
15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

No mention by Christ of corpses and garbage burning in a valley outside the city of Jerusalem. If Gehenna is supposed to be evocative of a town dump, Jesus does a poor job of making it so. Instead, Gehenna is, by Jesus, associated with everlasting and unquenchable fire, undying worms, divine punishment, the utter loss of all well-being, and the wicked hypocrisy of the Pharisees. Where the "theo-illogical bias" is in Christ's words, I don't know.

 

[aiki]

Dear Aiki: I do not insinuate! There is no such thing as "eternal hell" in the Scriptures!!!

After you post what are the reasons for "everlasting punishment" according to the context in St. Matt. 25 we will proceed forward.

Excuse me, but I don't follow your orders. I will talk with you about this matter as I like, not according to your directions. I will say this: You are caught on the twin horns of a parallelism in Matthew 25:46 that clearly indicate a never-to-end span of time to the everlasting punishment it mentions. To deny this is to do obvious and unwarranted violence to the parallel.

 

[FineLinen]

Excuse me, but I don't follow your orders. I will talk with you about this matter as I like, not according to your directions. I will say this: You are caught on the twin horns of a parallelism in Matthew 25:46 that you cannot escape without doing violence to the parallel.

Dear Aiki: Suit yourself. This will end our discussion until you list the five (5) conditions according to the context of St. Matthew 25 for "everlasting punishment".

 

[aiki]

Dear Aiki: Suit yourself. This will end our discussion until you list the five (5) conditions according to the context of St. Matthew 25 for "everlasting punishment".

Yeah, I'm not going to let you dictate to me how I discuss this matter. When you can get down from your high horse and leave off the didactic orders, I'd be happy to resume our discussion.

 

[Faith Unites]

Why did God create a place like hell to put "damned souls and spirits" in it? Isnt it more merciful to control/alt/delete those souls from creation instead of punishing them and making them suffer forever?

Who knows. C.S. Lewis has a quote though, says the gates of hell are locked from within. Just follow Jesus and let God worry about the future. It’s completely outside of our control.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This topic is more of a heart issue. A person can see words in the Bible and make them say what they want to say these days. But if a person reads the Bible with their "moral compass" shut off or their "fair justice" compass turned off, they can spout Scripture verses until they are blue in the face and never really have any real understanding of what they are truly saying. It doesn't mean anything. It's just empty knowledge with no basis for what is actually good. But good always wins; For God is good. For God is love. Consider 1 Corinthians 13 about love and knowledge.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Matthew 25:46:

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment [not everlasting punishing]: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46).

Note: The words in brackets above in blue are my comments to the text.

Everlasting is the parallel (which speak of the eternal consequences).

Both life and death (destruction, i.e. the punishment) have eternal consequences or effects.
But life and death (punishment) is the contrast.

So the verse is one part parallel and one part contrast.
Now, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.

So the contrast is life (reward) and death (punishment).
And everlasting is the parallel.

Anyways, if ECT was true, the verse would say,

"And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss."
(Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).
​

But the verse doesn't really say that, though. In fact, no verse in Scripture says that the wicked have eternal life or immortality. But assumptions are made whereby it turns God into being some kind of non-stop angry kind of God who is beyond any kind of fair justice. But what about the loving God who is long suffering and not willing that any should PERISH? What about the God who so loved the world?​

 

[FineLinen]

This topic is more of a heart issue. A person can see words in the Bible and make them say what they want to say these days. But if a person reads the Bible with their "moral compass" shut off or their "fair justice" compass turned off, they can spout Scripture verses until they are blue in the face and never really have any real understanding of what they are truly saying. It doesn't mean anything. It's just empty knowledge with no basis for what is actually good. But good always wins; For God is good. For God is love. Consider 1 Corinthians 13 about love and knowledge.

Dear Jason: My friend you have stated clearly what is at issue. Does the Father of all fathers torment any of His offspring? Is His punishment to His enemies torment for today, tomorrow, and for endless ages without ending, with zero purpose outside of pure vengeance? We then rush to our verses of Canon to prove this God whose essence is Love operates in such fashion. Oh please!

I have 3 sons. They have displeased me at times, but they are my offspring. I will gladly give everything I have to save them and that includes my life! Yes, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the whole rotten bunch of us has given His life to make us what we are to be

 

[FineLinen]

The word in koine for God's "damnation" in the KJV is krima. Do you who are visiting this link know what the King's translator's failed to do?

Damnation begins at the house of God

The word for "damnation" must always be translated the same in every verse! Krima= krima= krima!

Damnable, Damnation, And Damned - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary

Blue Letter Bible=

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV)

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm