I need some advice please

[sunshine100]

Well, apart from the theology of the debate, off topic, I do feel like it's kind of rude for these guys to burst in on your house and get into it with you.

I agree,you believe what you believe in,and no one should tell you differently

 

[A_Thinker]

Something similar happened to me when I was a baby Christian. A friend who moved out of state joined the Church of Christ and flew me to Colorado to visit her--knowing that her roommate planned to proselytize. I hadn't been baptized yet, and the roommate had me convinced that I wasn't saved and that all the Christians I knew who weren't members of their church weren't saved. It was horrible. It really shook me up!

My encounters with the COC was what prompted my own personal study of the scriptures.

I wanted to KNOW what the scriptures said ... and what they didn't. I was no longer satisfied with partial (or taught) knowledge.

 

[Southernscotty]

These things almost always degenerate into a proof-text war. More electrons have been spent doing that than we can count, and I personally have developed a very sensitive and advanced detection and response mechanism to it - I simply skip the post, or the thread, or the forum, or the site, entirely, and I do it quickly.

AISI, the bottom line is that there is an obedience of faith that touches on both faith and works. It's generated by faith in God's goodness (thereby drawing us into God), not by the belief that we can save ourselves (which would lure our hearts away from Him), but it touches on works because it's something that we do. For instance, we all had to accept the free gift of life that Christ offered us.

Abraham had to prepare, and then defend from the birds of prey, the sacrifice that God then used in cutting the Abrahmic covenant. If Abraham hadn't done his part, there would have been no covenant. Does that give Abraham the right to boast about his works? In no way. How could that minimal effort compare to the salvation and promises God offered? It would be an insult to the Spirit of Grace and indeed it would show an insincere heart toward God. The proof of that is that God walked alone through the animal parts, rather than the customary both parties walking together, signifying that He was taking responsibility for fulfilling the promises solely upon Himself.

Paul and James, btw, are in perfect harmony on this. Paul never taught a cheap grace, he taught and modeled a complete and energetic consecration no matter the price. And in promoting works to complete our faith James was essentially giving us a reality-check, so that we weren't deluding ourselves with a dry intellectual assent rather than holding to a genuine obedient faith in God.

The problem, AISI, is that man takes the obedience of faith, which is necessarily baked into the salvation equation, and translates it into a religious regimen of works. Do this, don't do that. We are warned against this time and again, as in Col. 2. There is no end to the damage the religious spirit can do, and it is very easy to fall into. That is why we are warned so strongly to be on our guard against it.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. -Gal 5.1​

I have never thought of the fact of God walking alone through the covenant of animal parts. This is good stuff and I will certainly show them this. Thank you very much

 

[A_Thinker]

We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.

Your theology is sound.

Remember, ... Jesus was also called a heretic ...

 

[Deborah D]

My encounters with the COC was what prompted my own personal study of the scriptures.

I wanted to KNOW what the scriptures said ... and what they didn't. I was no longer satisfied with partial (or taught) knowledge.

Amazing how that works! The enemy tries to shake us up, but God uses these situations to remove from us the things that can be shaken. I'm with you--I want the WHOLE TRUTH!

 

[Southernscotty]

I wish I were much smarter and could memorize the scriptures like they do, However with all I have had happen in last year, I can barely remember to put on my shoes before I leave home.
I even told them, This is not a good time for me but they insist so I have been meeting with them here out of a loving heart because to be honest, I worry about their salvation.
I plead the Blood of Jesus as my sin atonement and they plead water as their cleansing agent.

 

[A_Thinker]

You are correct, I do, and isn't it funny how at times like this is when everyone wants to debate and discuss things and ask hard questions. lol
I know they are trying to help me in their own minds, However I wish to help them, However I am out of ideas as to how too?

We cannot make people see spiritual things, that is what the Holy Spirit does.

You can always plant seeds ... as long as they continue with you.

But, remember that they are working according to a tried and tested process (to proselytize) ... which is quite cult-like in nature.

I later reflected on why they seemed to target believers ... as opposed to those without faith ...

 

[RaymondG]

Make note of how stubborn and hard fast in "false" beliefs that these friends seem. The things that are so clear to you seem to completely go over their heads. And then look in the mirror and ask: Am I not the Same in their eyes?

Verily I say unto.....While the religious argue doctrine......the prostitutes and sinners will be entering the kingdom of heaven...

Except we sell all we have and know...we will remain unfit.

Note: we are not allowed to converse/reason with other posters in the forum you posted in.......if we reply to another, we are locked out from the thread....unable to post therein again.

 

[A_Thinker]

I wish I were much smarter and could memorize the scriptures like they do, However with all I have had happen in last year, I can barely remember to put on my shoes before I leave home.
I even told them, This is not a good time for me ...

Unfortunately for you ... your time of trial is a good time ... for them ...

 

[ripple the car]

I agree,you believe what you believe in,and no one should tell you differently

*Nods*. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree and just focus on loving each other. Some differences are irreconcilable, and debating endlessly is fruitless.

I wish I were much smarter and could memorize the scriptures like they do, However with all I have had happen in last year, I can barely remember to put on my shoes before I leave home.
I even told them, This is not a good time for me but they insist so I have been meeting with them here out of a loving heart because to be honest, I worry about their salvation.
I plead the Blood of Jesus as my sin atonement and they plead water as their cleansing agent.

Scotty, you raise a good point. You *have* been through a heck of a lot this year. It is ok to simply disengage from this friend. A true friendship does not involve beating you over the head with selected Scripture verses 24/7.

 

[maintenance man]

It is stressful and confusing and God is not the Author of confusion

The devil is the author of confusion. He is thrilled that those seeking God are twisted into knots over doctrinal difference. Don't let him have the victory. Find your points of agreement and leave it there.

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.” 1 Peter 3:18 (NIV)

 

[Southernscotty]

You can always plant seeds ... as long as they continue with you.

But, remember that they are working according to a tried and tested process (to proselytize) ... which is quite cult-like in nature.

I later reflected on why they seemed to target believers ... as opposed to those without faith ...

That is a great point that I had not considered hmmmm

 

[Tigger45]

I wish I were much smarter and could memorize the scriptures like they do, However with all I have had happen in last year, I can barely remember to put on my shoes before I leave home.
I even told them, This is not a good time for me but they insist so I have been meeting with them here out of a loving heart because to be honest, I worry about their salvation.
I plead the Blood of Jesus as my sin atonement and they plead water as their cleansing agent.

See this is what bothers me about the whole situation. Its one thing for friends to have a friendly banter but considering the year you’ve had IMO I feel its inappropriate to bring in a heavy hitter and ultimately be called a heretic. I think you should put an end to the three way discussion and tell your friend exactly how you feel about it. If he loves you as much as you love him he will understand.

 

[mama2one]

I have a dear friend
they have came here three times
Thanks guys.

@Southernscotty

since he's a dear friend, ask him to please not bring his Dr friend over with him next time he visits

we have to look after ourselves, also not just others

 

[Southernscotty]

Well; I responded with the God walked through the animal pieces alone and that was a covenant with Abraham. I sent it through text. Lol He said yes, But Abraham had to prepare the animals
I tried

 

[Southernscotty]

Thanks guys, I know my friend just cres and is trying to help. I will have to shut it down soon though because it is really hard on me.
What bothers me is that I am not able to answer their questions as I would like and this really concerns me. It is causing me to take a look at scripture much deeper than ever before.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

What you might do is take a historical approach with them. Remind them of their Protestant origins, and from there you might have a platform to go into the Protestant Reformers views, and if they reject them, remind them of how they reject the grounds upon which they stand. You could even go back further to an ECF like Augustine, and provide some quotes on grace. They cannot claim Sola Scriptura without at the same time depend on historical theology. Press them on their Scriptural presuppositions as contrasted with what the Scriptures plainly state. Sorry to hear about the situation brother Scott, what they're doing is not right, in the privacy of your home. I would have them bounced right out of the door! Bein' honest.

 

[Deborah D]

I guess the bottom like is whether God wants you to continue meeting with them. You need wisdom and discernment. I pray that you will know His will in the matter.

 

[messianist]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

stick with it southernscotty

Every blessing

 

[mama2one]

What bothers me is that I am not able to answer their questions as I would like and this really concerns me. It is causing me to take a look at scripture much deeper than ever before.

can understand that

my neighbor friend is a Pastor's wife and obviously am never going to seem like I know anything at all next to her but I accept it as am not married to a Pastor

"we" as in anyone, don't have to compete with others but can let others inspire us to learn more