I need some advice please

[Southernscotty]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Well, apart from the theology of the debate, off topic, I do feel like it's kind of rude for these guys to burst in on your house and get into it with you.

 

[Dave L]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

They might not admit defeat, but the Achilles heal of all conditional salvation schemes is that God provides salvation only for the self-righteous. And we know how repugnant self-righteousness is. Whether foreseen and predestined. Or happening in real time.

 

[dysert]

May I suggest that you really don't need different points of view but rather you need to know how to deal with the issue of the ongoing dispute? The reason I suggest this is because both sides can proof-text their way to their position. (Just like proof-texting your way to various other doctrines.) Look around here and you'll see people proof-texting their position on the rapture, millennialism, once saved always saved, etc. It's all so much heat and no light.

 

[JohnB445]

We must rightly divide scripture as the Bible commands. We are in the Church age, saved by the blood of Jesus, nothing else can save us.

Anyone that tries to get saved another way apart from the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15) Jesus calls a thief and a liar.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber."

 

[A_Thinker]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

I've dealt with the COC crowd before.

There is no convincing them ... they will ultimately disassociate from you if you hold to your "salvation by grace" position, among others ...

 

[Southernscotty]

We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.

 

[anna ~ grace]

We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.

I think you have a right to ask them, politely, to stop arguing with you in your own house.

 

[EzekielsWheels]

I would just let this one go and not get into it with them. Your faith is not affected by theirs and whether they think you're a heretic or not is irrelevant. As you said, you are saved by faith, so do not let yourself be enslaved to anyone who brings a works-based salvation doctrine to you. John might even advise that you not even let them in your home because anyone who does not believe they are saved by faith is in fact themselves a false brother and heretic, but I don't know the nuances of their position so I can't say. We don't have to defend our position to anyone because we are judged by no man.

 

[Dansiph]

I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

I will try to help bro. The only reason I feel permitted to respond as a new Christian is everything is fresh to me ...

Them coming to your house three times is not good. Also:

2 Timothy 2:23 (KJV)
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

I did some verse searching and Galatians 2:16 seems applicable here

edited: font size changed itself

 

[Southernscotty]

I just can't see Romans 6 3,4 as water immersion, They say this is because I am indoctrinated and that is why. So I have really been studying however I still cannot make it work in my simple mind.
This is us placed spiritually in the body of Christ

 

[nChrist]

Forget the COC crowd. What you already believe is correct. Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

 

[EzekielsWheels]

We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.

Everything in a sense might be considered a "work," except that it's a work in Christ Jesus not of our own merits, and we only have Christ if we have faith in him and not in our own goodness, so to do the works that are sanctioned and approved by God you must first have faith, all good works derive from faith otherwise it's self-righteousness.

 

[Deborah D]

Something similar happened to me when I was a baby Christian. A friend who moved out of state joined the Church of Christ and flew me to Colorado to visit her--knowing that her roommate planned to proselytize. I hadn't been baptized yet, and the roommate had me convinced that I wasn't saved and that all the Christians I knew who weren't members of their church weren't saved. It was horrible. It really shook me up!

But God taught me a lot through this experience. I learned that every denomination has its pet doctrines, and there are diehards in every denomination that think they have the truth and no one else does.(I've met them!) And they're all wrong! The whole Bible contains THE TRUTH, not sections of scripture cherrypicked to prove denominational doctrines. Jesus said that His Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth, but I have found that so much denominational doctrine is based on man's reasoning.

My advice is not to engage in this debate!!! Sounds like you have enough going on right now without this. Study the scriptures, and you'll see that there is a preponderance of verses showing that we are saved by grace through faith, period. Our works are a result of salvation, not the source of our salvation. The good works that we do were prepared by God for us to walk in--as a result of His grace toward us, not as a result of our effort to be saved.

Ephesians 2:1-10--

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
​

I hope this makes sense and helps!!! You know I'm praying for you!

 

[Southernscotty]

As I stated the one is a dear friend of mine, he is just so convinced that he can convert me that he just won't quit. I honestly want to point them to the truth but I am out of ideas to proceed forward.
I have presented the gospel to them both every single way that I know how and they have a rebuttal every time.
Lol It is stressful and confusing and God is not the Author of confusion

 

[Southernscotty]

Everything in a sense might be considered a "work," except that it's a work in Christ Jesus not of our own merits, and we only have Christ if we have faith in him and not in our own goodness, so to do the works that are sanctioned and approved by God you must first have faith, all good works derive from faith otherwise it's self-righteousness.

I agree 100 percent however they will not accept this.
The word baptizo has over 20 meanings in the greek and it was never translated as far as I can tell. But to them it is strictly water

 

[Southernscotty]

Something similar happened to me when I was a baby Christian. A friend who moved out of state joined the Church of Christ and flew me to Colorado to visit her--knowing that her roommate planned to proselytize. I hadn't been baptized yet, and the roommate had me convinced that I wasn't saved and that all the Christians I knew who weren't members of their church weren't saved. It was horrible. It really shook me up!

But God taught me a lot through this experience. I learned that every denomination has its pet doctrines, and there are diehards in every denomination that think they have the truth and no one else does.(I've met them!) And they're all wrong! The whole Bible contains THE TRUTH, not sections of scripture cherrypicked to prove denominational doctrines. Jesus said that His Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth, but I have found that so much denominational doctrine is based on man's reasoning.

My advice is not to engage in this debate!!! Sounds like you have enough going on right now without this. Study the scriptures, and you'll see that there is a preponderance of verses showing that we are saved by grace through faith, period. Our works are a result of salvation, not the source of our salvation. The good works that we do were prepared by God for us to walk in--as a result of His grace toward us, not as a result of our effort to be saved.

Ephesians 2:1-10--

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
​

I hope this makes sense and helps!!! You know I'm praying for you!

You are correct, I do, and isn't it funny how at times like this is when everyone wants to debate and discuss things and ask hard questions. lol
I know they are trying to help me in their own minds, However I wish to help them, However I am out of ideas as to how too?
We cannot make people see spiritual things, that is what the Holy Spirit does.

 

[A_Thinker]

We are in a constant scripture war and I do not like to be accused of being a heretic, They have thrown out some good stuff that I cannot deny, however they cannot see any other way than doing some fleshly works as mandatory to receive salvation .
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They keep saying see, You have to believe and that is a work too? This has been a drain on me.

Obviously, WORKS is a component in the salvation equation.

It's just that WORKS occurs as a RESULT of salvation, as opposed to a INPUT to one's salvation. This accords with Paul's statements in Ephesians 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
For BY GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

BELIEF and FAITH are the same thing. And the Bible never implies that FAITH is a WORK. In fact, Paul says that FAITH is a GIFT from God (again ... Ephesians 2:8-10).

They word salad the scriptures into saying whatever they wish. And they have been doing this for years. When they are convinced that you won't be swayed by them, they will leave you to your fate. But you may be able to place a few seeds in your friend's ear. When they thought that I might be more of an influence on them than the other way around, ... they dropped me like a hot rock.

 

[Dansiph]

As I stated the one is a dear friend of mine, he is just so convinced that he can convert me that he just won't quit. I honestly want to point them to the truth but I am out of ideas to proceed forward.
I have presented the gospel to them both every single way that I know how and they have a rebuttal every time.
Lol It is stressful and confusing and God is not the Author of confusion

2 Corinthians 4:4 - In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[paul1149]

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.

These things almost always degenerate into a proof-text war. More electrons have been spent doing that than we can count, and I personally have developed a very sensitive and advanced detection and response mechanism to it - I simply skip the post, or the thread, or the forum, or the site, entirely, and I do it quickly.

AISI, the bottom line is that there is an obedience of faith that touches on both faith and works. It's generated by faith in God's goodness (thereby drawing us into God), not by the belief that we can save ourselves (which would lure our hearts away from Him), but it touches on works because it's something that we do. For instance, we all had to accept the free gift of life that Christ offered us.

Abraham had to prepare, and then defend from the birds of prey, the sacrifice that God then used in cutting the Abrahmic covenant. If Abraham hadn't done his part, there would have been no covenant. Does that give Abraham the right to boast about his works? In no way. How could that minimal effort compare to the salvation and promises God offered? It would be an insult to the Spirit of Grace and indeed it would show an insincere heart toward God. The proof of that is that God walked alone through the animal parts, rather than the customary both parties walking together, signifying that He was taking responsibility for fulfilling the promises solely upon Himself.

Paul and James, btw, are in perfect harmony on this. Paul never taught a cheap grace, he taught and modeled a complete and energetic consecration no matter the price. And in promoting works to complete our faith James was essentially giving us a reality-check, so that we weren't deluding ourselves with a dry intellectual assent rather than holding to a genuine obedient faith in God.

The problem, AISI, is that man takes the obedience of faith, which is necessarily baked into the salvation equation, and translates it into a religious regimen of works. Do this, don't do that. We are warned against this time and again, as in Col. 2. There is no end to the damage the religious spirit can do, and it is very easy to fall into. That is why we are warned so strongly to be on our guard against it.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. -Gal 5.1​