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I need some advice please

A_Thinker

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Thanks guys, I know my friend just cres and is trying to help. I will have to shut it down soon though because it is really hard on me.

What bothers me is that I am not able to answer their questions as I would like and this really concerns me. It is causing me to take a look at scripture much deeper than ever before.

You will never be able to address all of their questions. Their questions are not designed to lead one to the truth of God. They are designed to confuse.

OTOH, personal scriptural study is good. It will help to ground you.

P.S. Also understand that they are PUSHING your friend to bring you in. I had a work acquaintance who lost his wife (and access to his young son) to the COC church. They would only approve a reconciliation ... if he came back to the fold. This, despite his being a believer ...
 
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Southernscotty

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What you might do is take a historical approach with them. Remind them of their Protestant origins, and from there you might have a platform to go into the Protestant Reformers views, and if they reject them, remind them of how they reject the grounds upon which they stand. You could even go back further to an ECF like Augustine, and provide some quotes on grace. They cannot claim Sola Scriptura without at the same time depend on historical theology. Press them on their Scriptural presuppositions as contrasted with what the Scriptures plainly state. Sorry to hear about the situation brother Scott, what they're doing is not right, in the privacy of your home. I would have them bounced right out of the door! Bein' honest.
The question is, When is it that we touch the Blood?
I believe it is the moment of God's Word drawing [hearing] and us accepting [confessing] that we are immersed in the body of Christ.
They believe it is the moment of water baptism.
So when do we receive the cleansing?
I have went over old jewish purification ceremonies with them, To the early jews and apostles "everything was ceremonially washed". Anytime someone switched religions, They were baptised as a way of washing the old off and accepting the new.
John's baptism was a baptism of repentance that prepared people's hearts for Christ.

See I baptize people and it is important, But it is an outward sign of an inward change.
[ They can't stand me saying this]
You see in my opinion, We either let go and let Christ? "OR" we try to earn it by works of righteousness and that is impossible as our best works are as filthy rags
 
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Southernscotty

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You will never be able to address all of their questions. Their questions are not designed to lead one to the truth of God. They are designed to confuse.

OTOH, personal scriptural study is good. It will help to ground you.

P.S. Also understand that they are PUSHING your friend to bring you in. I had a work acquaintance who lost his wife (and access to his young son) to the COC church. They would only approve a reconciliation ... if he came back to the fold. This, despite his being a believer ...
Wow, I have been looking at some history on COC and seeing many stories like this.
 
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Southernscotty

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can understand that

my neighbor friend is a Pastor's wife and obviously am never going to seem like I know anything at all next to her but I accept it as am not married to a Pastor

"we" as in anyone, don't have to compete with others but can let others inspire us to learn more
Yeah it makes one feel kinda dumb when someone says what does joshua 1:16 say, I say let me look it up and they say NAH, I will tell you and they rehearse it exactly as it says.
My memory is not good enough to remember half as much as these guys. They have it going on in that department I give them that. lol
Here I am a pastor and yet I have to look up a lot of things because I have forgotten the verse number.
But at least I feel as though I have a better understanding of the mentioned scripture than they do because they are misinterpreting a lot of them to fit their thinking.
Their way is fleshly
 
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Deborah D

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The question is, When is it that we touch the Blood?
I believe it is the moment of God's Word drawing [hearing] and us accepting [confessing] that we are immersed in the body of Christ.
They believe it is the moment of water baptism.
So when do we receive the cleansing?
I have went over old jewish purification ceremonies with them, To the early jews and apostles "everything was ceremonially washed". Anytime someone switched religions, They were baptised as a way of washing the old off and accepting the new.
John's baptism was a baptism of repentance that prepared people's hearts for Christ.

See I baptize people and it is important, But it is an outward sign of an inward change.
[ They can't stand me saying this]
You see in my opinion, We either let go and let Christ? "OR" we try to earn it by works of righteousness and that is impossible as our best works are as filthy rags

If salvation is by works at all, where does it stop? The Christian life becomes an endless effort to please God with our works--like every other religion in the world. Salvation by grace through faith sets Christianity apart from all the false religions of works.
 
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Southernscotty

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If salvation is by works at all, where does it stop? The Christian life becomes an endless effort to please God with our works--like every other religion in the world. Salvation by grace through faith sets Christianity apart from all the false religions of works.
Yes, On the cross, Jesus said IT IS FINISHED!!! Not it is "almost finished", Now get baptized...
 
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The question is, When is it that we touch the Blood?
I believe it is the moment of God's Word drawing [hearing] and us accepting [confessing] that we are immersed in the body of Christ.
They believe it is the moment of water baptism.
So when do we receive the cleansing?
I have went over old jewish purification ceremonies with them, To the early jews and apostles "everything was ceremonially washed". Anytime someone switched religions, They were baptised as a way of washing the old off and accepting the new.
John's baptism was a baptism of repentance that prepared people's hearts for Christ.

See I baptize people and it is important, But it is an outward sign of an inward change.
[ They can't stand me saying this]
You see in my opinion, We either let go and let Christ? "OR" we try to earn it by works of righteousness and that is impossible as our best works are as filthy rags

That which is flesh is flesh and spirit, spirit. Yeah God is spirit and man in the flesh thinks on the outward, where God is concerned (primarily) with the inward, and God alone is able to bring inward conversion. Man thinks if he converts the outward, the inward will follow, but it does not work that way, dishes are cleaned inside out. I dare say many a dry sinner has came up from baptismal waters a wet sinner. Why? Because God had not converted them inwardly, and it is why some people are baptized more than once, because they know it. You might ask them, how it is their ministers have the authority and indeed power to move the hand of God almighty to convert sinners, and how they coax the unconverted sinner to agree to be baptized.
 
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A_Thinker

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Well; I responded with the God walked through the animal pieces alone and that was a covenant with Abraham. I sent it through text. Lol He said yes, But Abraham had to prepare the animals :doh:
I tried

I've attached a link which discusses the preparation of the covenant sacrifice by Abraham.

I would say that it is analogous to our preparing our hearts to receive God's covenant with us. The scriptures instruct us to SEEK GOD, but such seeking is not considered a work. Consider Cornelius, the righteous God-believer to whom GOD SENT Peter to deliver His covenant salvation.

All through scripture we are called upon to SEEK, COME, CHOOSE, EAT, DRINK, HEAR, REASON WITH ME, etc. This is something other than the WORKS that follow salvation ...

Abraham's Sacrifice (Forerunner Commentary)
 
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Tigger45

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The unique distinction about the pure Gosple of Christ is works ‘fruit of the Spirit’ are a manifestation of gratitude for what He has done but in every other religion works are done to appease their god to complete the process of atonement.
 
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Southernscotty

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I've attached a link which discusses the preparation of the covenant sacrifice by Abraham.

I would say that it is analogous to our preparing our hearts to receive God's covenant with us. The scriptures instruct us to SEEK GOD, but such seeking is not considered a work. Consider Cornelius, the righteous God-believer to whom GOD SENT Peter to deliver His covenant salvation.

All through scripture we are called upon to SEEK, COME, CHOOSE, EAT, DRINK, HEAR, REASON WITH ME, etc. This is something other than the WORKS that follow salvation ...

Abraham's Sacrifice (Forerunner Commentary)
That is great, Thank you I will scour over this and use it. Bless you
 
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Hazelelponi

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

Good Afternoon.

You Pastor a church am I correct? So you know more than anyone Titus 3:9

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless"

I don't know why Christians don't all agree in scripture, but I do know that quarreling about our particular interpretation of it is pointless. It doesn't edify anyone and only leads to decidedly un-brotherly and un-sisterly feelings, when we should have a spirit of love and forgiveness.

So honestly, be the better man and explain why you won't argue, and why you don't appreciate them coming to your home and insulting you.

They won't change your mind (stand firm in your saved by faith doctrine) But at the same time, you most assuredly won't change theirs - (anyone with this level of audacity is not going to listen to a word you say..).

Therefore forgive them for they know not what they do, and ask them to stop coming over if they can't treat you with respect in your home.

As Christ told the disciples, just shake the dust off your feet.
 
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A_Thinker

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Yeah it makes one feel kinda dumb when someone says what does joshua 1:16 say, I say let me look it up and they say NAH, I will tell you and they rehearse it exactly as it says.

My memory is not good enough to remember half as much as these guys. They have it going on in that department I give them that. lol

They have a script.

They don't know MORE than you know. They just KNOW their script ...
 
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Halbhh

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I am seeking some additional responses to an ongoing problem at my house.

I have a dear friend that I love so much and he has always talked with me about his views being Church of Christ and we would always banter back and forth playfully as I am a grace by faith believer.
However he decided to bring over a Dr friend of his that has memorized a bunch of scripture {A bunch} and is very "book" smart and a COC minister and they started a debate over my doctrine.

He straight up told me that I was a heretic because I do not believe that works save us. [I do not]
he stated that they are biblically mandatory as Naaman had to dip 7 times in the Jordan etc.

This has turned into an all out battle of the scriptures as they have came here three times now and we have spent much time going back and forth.
I keep telling them [simply] that at the death of Jesus a new testament began and the apostle Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and he brought about the mystery of salvation by Grace through Faith, Which was what God wanted all along. Was faith.
I was taught this in school and I also believe it with all my heart.

I see Romans 6:3,4 as a 'spiritual' baptism and they see it as 'water'.
This is only the very beginning of it all as also I don't attend the "one" true "church of Christ" so I am damned lol

Can you guys give me BOTH sides here and let us rightly divide the Word as stated 2 Tim.

Again I do not want another hard debate, Just some different viewpoints to look at.
Thanks guys.

I bet you already have some good answers with so many posts, but since my extended family on my mother's side attends Church of Christ, and I did many hundreds of times all through youth when visiting my Grandparents every summer (even some in early 20s too), I thought perhaps I should add a bit on that part. One thing I knew instinctively even by about age 13 or so, already, was that this idea: "the "one" true "church of Christ" is certainly and entirely wrong. Christ's church is what He chooses, the Church of all who believe in Him we understand from the gospel. No particular flavor of church has a monopoly.

Instead Christ is the One Who has the monopoly.

Just telling you what you already know as an encouragement. :)

Faith and works explained correctly is not Faith vs Works, nor Faith without works, nor Works necessary (for justification).
None of the above.

It's even better than any of these. Not simply something like Faith and Works go hand in hand (though I like that wording, there is more to learn on it than only that).

I found the R. C. Sproul lecture series on the reformation very very good at addressing this basic issue of the correct understanding of faith and works, and in particular this one (number #9 of 10 in the series), about 22 minutes, free if you have Amazon Prime:

9. Protestant View of Justification: Here. Scroll down to video #9
Amazon.com: Watch Luther and the Reformation | Prime Video

By minute 3 Sproul is getting into the key equation if you like, which is a very helpful way of explaining it. (but I suggest watch all the way through, Sproul is that good) Ask me if you don't have Amazon Prime and I'll summarize briefly.
 
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Southernscotty

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Good Afternoon.

You Pastor a church am I correct? So you know more than anyone Titus 3:9

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless"

I don't know why Christians don't all agree in scripture, but I do know that quarreling about our particular interpretation of it is pointless. It doesn't edify anyone and only leads to decidedly un-brotherly and un-sisterly feelings, when we should have a spirit of love and forgiveness.

So honestly, be the better man and explain why you won't argue, and why you don't appreciate them coming to your home and insulting you.

They won't change your mind (stand firm in your saved by faith doctrine) But at the same time, you most assuredly won't change theirs - (anyone with this level of audacity is not going to listen to a word you say..).

Therefore forgive them for they know not what they do, and ask them to stop coming over if they can't treat you with respect in your home.
As I stated earlier it started in innocent fun about our particular viewpoints. Like when my buddy would come over, I would say would you like a glass of water? Just joking around. However over the years it has progressed to a worrisome thing as he thinks I am a heretic and I take that very seriously because I am held to a higher accountability as a pastor and do not want to mislead anyone.
I take the role of minister very very seriously and I believe the message with all my heart or else I would not teach it.
I now, In turn worry for this friend, because I do believe he is misled and yet I do not know how to explain the gospel in a way that causes him to see the spiritual aspect of it.
You see, I have a problem and that consist of not wanting to give up on anyone. I can't stand the thought of someone being punished and I believe that is what happens after death if someone doesn't confess Christ and accept the "free" gift.

I know in reality we can't save everyone but he is my friend and I love him, But why can't he see the grace that is in Christ ??
 
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Willis Gravning

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When I was in the Navy serving aboard ship one of the officers tried to set up a bible study group. There were a couple COC people present at the first one and they completely ruined it. Everyone except them were heretics. The group never got past one meeting.
 
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StillGods

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i havent read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.
re: baprism saving us the guy on the cross next to Jesus didnt have an option to get baptised with water and Jesus said he would be in paradise with Him so he was saved without water baptism.
 
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I wish I were much smarter and could memorize the scriptures like they do, However with all I have had happen in last year, I can barely remember to put on my shoes before I leave home. I even told them, This is not a good time for me but they insist so I have been meeting with them here out of a loving heart because to be honest, I worry about their salvation. I plead the Blood of Jesus as my sin atonement and they plead water as their cleansing agent.

As a younger Christian, I would read the Scriptures and try to memorize as much as I could, and there is value in memorizing Scripture, however I learned it is of greater value to understand the meaning, the message of those verses. That differing interpretations can be proof texted, should be enough to tell us of the need and dependency of interpretation, and it is even better when we can interpret Scripture, with Scripture. On another note, human smarts can be a stumbling block, grounds for pride, and many brilliant men are perishing just the same. Depend on the Holy Spirit, pray, He can give you the words, bring things to your remembrance. It's happened to me many times, things I thought I forgot, things I pushed to the back burner in my mind, He brought back to me, re-taught me, as unworthy as I am.
 
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Southernscotty

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I bet you already have some good answers with so many posts, but since my extended family on my mother's side attends Church of Christ, and I did many hundreds of times all through youth when visiting my Grandparents every summer (even some in early 20s too), I thought perhaps I should add a bit on that part. One thing I knew instinctively even by about age 13 or so, already, was that this idea: "the "one" true "church of Christ" is certainly and entirely wrong. Christ's church is what He chooses, the Church of all who believe in Him we understand from the gospel. No particular flavor of church has a monopoly.

Instead Christ is the One Who has the monopoly.

Just telling you what you already know as an encouragement. :)

Faith and works explained correctly is not Faith vs Works, nor Faith without works, nor Works necessary (for justification).
None of the above.

It's even better than any of these. Not simply something like Faith and Works go hand in hand (though I like that wording, there is more to learn on it than only that).

I found the R. C. Sproul lecture series on the reformation very very good at addressing this basic issue of the correct understanding of faith and works, and in particular this one (number #9 of 10 in the series), about 22 minutes, free if you have Amazon Prime:

9. Protestant View of Justification: Here. Scroll down to video #9
Amazon.com: Watch Luther and the Reformation | Prime Video

By minute 3 Sproul is getting into the key equation if you like, which is a very helpful way of explaining it. (but I suggest watch all the way through, Sproul is that good) Ask me if you don't have Amazon Prime and I'll summarize briefly.
Thank you very much and I will look at that. I know their doctrine is misleading, But how do I combat it?
I have them looking at the dispensations that I see in the bible and I hope this gets us on the same page, However It doesn't look like it is going too.
 
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