Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[mark kennedy]

Uh, I have been "digesting" this for some 40 years. I think I "got it" pretty well. There is another method to understand the struggle with sin and that is to struggle with sin and overcome by the blood of the lamb.

Of course, no question. But there is a difference in repentance at conversion and repenting of some flawed behaviour or attitude. They are hard to seperate to be sure, but discernably different with regards to salvation.

 

[Neogaia777]

I can to tell you how. Obey the HOly Spirit in your life. Those are not filthy rags.

Thanks... Trying to see them a little differently now, with help (sometimes a lot of help) of course...

God Bless You!

 

[Neogaia777]

"Don't be so quick to deal out death and judgement, Frodo Baggins" (Gandalf the Grey, LOR, Fellowship of the Ring)...

God Bless!

 

[ClementofA]

You are a Universalist. So you mock any real form of punishment because everyone is going to eventually make it to heaven in the end.

No, Jason, there will be "real...punishment" & torments in Hades & the lake of fire. But you'ld be willing to suffer that, even if it were for a trillion years, in favor of eating ice cream & watching Star Trek for a day (or however long God let you live). Do you not see how foolish such a choice would be?

Mocking the idea of going 5mph over the speed limit vs say murder is not right. If you don’t know the difference, I will pray for you, dear sir.

Sin is a matter of the heart which God sees. All willful premeditated sin in hateful rebellion against God is evil. Whether that involves murder or picking up sticks on the Sabbath/speeding is irrelevant.

Yet you give people licence* for certain sins by saying such sins will not be punished with endless punishment. Will God, then, let people into the New Jerusalem with such sins upon their souls? Since only sins that lose your salvation give you motivation to confess & forsake them, you have no motivation to confess & forsake such sins. In fact, you are free to indulge in them to your heart's content.

* While you accuse OSAS advocates doctrine of giving people a licence to sin.

As I said before, no Christian is going to seek to disobey God in anything. They are going to want to obey all of Christ's commands because they love Him (See John 14:15). Those who really do not love Jesus, will seek to justify their sin and or wrong doing in some way.

If that were true, then you would do so even if hell were temporary & everyone in hell would be eventually saved. But you've denied that. So you are contradicting your earlier position. Earlier you said if those in hell will eventually be saved, then you'ld forsake God, eat ice cream & watch Star Trek movies. You wouldn't worry about going to hell. Now you are saying that sins that don't cause you loss of eventual salvation you'ld avoid because you "love Jesus". That's a contradiction of your previous remarks. Can't have it both ways Jason.

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[DeeR.]

I can to tell you how. Obey the HOly Spirit in your life. Those are not filthy rags.

He is quoting scripture Dorothy Mae (ie. filthy rags etc.)

 

[DeeR.]

No, Jason, there will be "real...punishment" & torments in Hades & the lake of fire. But you'ld be willing to suffer that, even if it were for a trillion years, in favor of eating ice cream & watching Star Trek for a day (or however long God let you live). Do you not see how foolish such a choice would be?



Sin is a matter of the heart which God sees. All willful premeditated sin in hateful rebellion against God is evil. Whether that involves murder or picking up sticks on the Sabbath/speeding is irrelevant.

Yet you give people licence* for certain sins by saying such sins will not be punished with endless punishment. Will God, then, let people into the New Jerusalem with such sins upon their souls? Since only sins that lose your salvation give you motivation to confess & forsake them, you have no motivation to confess & forsake such sins. In fact, you are free to indulge in them to your heart's content.

* While you accuse OSAS advocates doctrine of giving people a licence to sin.

I agree with much of this, it is just that God is not punishing them but they are choosing the torment of not having Him as Peace Love Joy Forgiveness and their own choices and sins eat away at them just like people choose to live in bitterness for a lifetime so they enter into eternity with that same death. By their own choices they are led away and live in sin and suffer the burning of its death inside of them. Angels that have sinned and been seperated from God's love do not cease to exist either.

 

[DeeR.]

Not at all. Psalms 19:12 talks about how the author is asking to be cleansed of their hidden and secret faults. The Lord's prayer is also an outline example for how we are to pray. Forgive us our debts is one part of that prayer. Focusing on that part of the outline of that prayer as an example of how to pray (and not as a mindless recitation) will cleanse the believer of their hidden or secret faults. Also, I think if the Holy Spirit can convict the world of it's sin (John 16:8), He can definitely do even more so with God's people. As I said before, no Christian is going to seek to disobey God in anything. They are going to want to obey all of Christ's commands because they love Him (See John 14:15). Those who really do not love Jesus, will seek to justify their sin and or wrong doing in some way.

It is certainly not so that Christians that are in Him will always want to obey his way or that they will not willfully disobey... they will not continue to do so forever though. There is always the old self/man/sin alive to fight, and even wins sometimes.

 

[Oldmantook]

You are very argumentative and condescending Oldmantook, that is not good. If you feel you need to be like that to prove a point, consider that you may already be missing the Spirit of the law and stuck on the letter. Interpretation of scripture is not on logic or reasoning for God has made such things foolish. It is by Revelation and Divine Wisdom. The context of the entire letter is very relevant since it is all meant as a whole as is the entirety of scripture. Dismissing his point on keeping it in context is incorrect because it is very important indeed.

I told you to read the English. If you don't believe that is what the verse plainly states, then it is incumbent upon you to explain it away. So far you have neglected to do so which only serves to further weaken your position. I already explained my interpretation; it's up to you to counter my reply based on what you think the verse states. If you desire to tackle it by all means, go ahead!

 

[Oldmantook]

Could the OSAS advocates argue as follows:

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in your faith...

This could mean if you don't continue in your faith, then you are not "now reconciled". Those who are now reconciled (i.e. saved) will continue in their faith. IOW not continuing in faith is evidence you are not "now reconciled". So to not "continue in your faith" is not necessarily evidence against OSAS or that one can be reconciled/saved & lose salvation.

The condition(s) for being "now reconciled" are:

Col.1:23a if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard...

If you don't fulfill those condition(s), then you are not "now reconciled". You might be reconciled some time in the future, but not "now".

We are reconciled to Christ upon being regenerated by the Spirit. Thus we are presently reconciled. However, the IF clause, indicates a condition that must be met in order to continue and to remain reconciled. OSAS adherents ignore the IF clauses in Scripture as it does not conveniently fit with their pet doctrine. If one does not continue in the faith through either no longer believing and/or disobedience then one is not "now reconciled" as you stated. To not continue to in the faith is against OSAS and Calvinist belief because they hold that those who are of the elect will always persevere. The elect will certainly persevere - no "if" involved according to them. That is precisely why they ignore the IF warnings throughout Scripture. One can be saved and lost and be saved again/alive AGAIN as demonstrated in the case of the prodigal son. However on the other hand, one can also forfeit his salvation if he refuses to repent and continues in disobedience.

 

[Neogaia777]

We are reconciled to Christ upon being regenerated by the Spirit. Thus we are presently reconciled. However, the IF clause, indicates a condition that must be met in order to continue and to remain reconciled. OSAS adherents ignore the IF clauses in Scripture as it does not conveniently fit with their pet doctrine. If one does not continue in the faith through either no longer believing and/or disobedience then one is not "now reconciled" as you stated. To not continue to the faith is evidence and OSAS and Calvinist belief cause they hold that those who are of the elect will always persevere. The elect will certainly persevere - no "if" involved according to them. That is precisely why they ignore the IF warnings throughout Scripture. One can be saved and lost and be saved again/alive AGAIN as demonstrated in the case of the prodigal son. However on the other hand, one can also forfeit his salvation if he refuses to repent and continues in disobedience.

The disobedience (sin) that will really cost you the is "unbelief", lack of faith and or turning away from the faith or not keeping and maintaining the faith, and for some, maybe deceived in a false belief (faith) (system) (way), but are shown the truth (real truth/faith) (system/way) and willingly, of their own free will, willingly choose to not listen to it, hear it, see it and/or obey it (disobedience), and flat out reject it, and their fore-bearers and fore-fathers and mothers killed many of these messengers from Him sent to them, so it (the real truth) was given to others...

Question is, what are you/we going to do "now"...?

God Bless!

 

[Oldmantook]

It also does not, sadly, state they are believers. To continue in the faith is an admonition for the nominal and the true. IF is indicative of the proof that shows who are truly His. For any scripture you point out there are many more that are showing your reasoning is at fault. Be at peace then approach the scriptures in prayer in humility. I don't want to argue or continue this with you since it is done in a poor spirit and will only try to persuade with human logic and reasoning.

You fail to explain how it is possible for an unbeliever to continue in the faith when he does not even belong to the faith. "If" you continue...can only apply to a genuine believer who is already in the faith. You must be able to defend your doctrine with those scriptures that contradict it as we know that Scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[Oldmantook]

The disobedience (sin) that will really cost you the is "unbelief", lack of faith and or turning away from the faith or not keeping and maintaining the faith, and for some, maybe deceived in a false belief (faith) (system) (way), but are shown the truth (real truth/faith) (system/way) and willingly, of their own free will, willingly choose to not listen to it, hear it, see it and/or obey it (disobedience), and flat out reject it, and their fore-bearers and fore-fathers and mothers killed many of these messengers from Him sent to them, so it (the real truth) was given to others...

Question is, what are you/we going to do "now"...?

God Bless!

We both agree that belief is required according to John 3:16. More precisely, "believing" is required as the Greek verb for belief is in the present tense indicating ongoing action. So one must continue believing in order to possess eternal life. If one no longer continues believing, then eternal life is not assured of.
Heb 5:9 states: "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," Again, the Greek verb tense for the word "obey" is in the present tense so one must continue "obeying" in order to possess eternal salvation. This verse cannot refer to a one-time moment of obedience as when one first obeyed/believed in Christ at conversion as the verb is not rendered in the aorist tense. So in answer to your question of what one is to do now? One's walk with Christ must be one of continued obedience if eternal life is to be had.

 

[Neogaia777]

We both agree that belief is required according to John 3:16. More precisely, "believing" is required as the Greek verb for belief is in the present tense indicating ongoing action. So one must continue believing in order to possess eternal life. If one no longer continues believing, then eternal life is not assured of.

I think the, or one of the issues is how much is really us and really God in that... I do think there would at least some (form of) minimal cooperation on our part though...

In some way, big or small, our own will is involved... Maybe till were truly made perfect and perfected anyway...

And/but obedience to and in the Faith right...?, and the rule an Law (covenant) of Faith...? And the commandment, Love...? Or not...?

God Bless!

 

[DeeR.]

Sorry but you have committed a logical fallacy. While it is certainly true that some who separate/depart from God were never believers, it does not logically nor scripturally entail that all who separate/depart were never believers. That would be like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs which is of course false.
Scripture certainly does not state that those who are truly his will remain and not be lost. Have you not read Col 1:23? "if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." The word IF indicates possibility NOT certainty. IF YOU CONTINUE in the faith.... This clause can only apply to genuine believers because an unsaved person cannot continue in the faith since he is not even in the faith to begin with. Only believers have the choice whether or not to continue in the faith. This verse clearly indicates that it is possible to not continue in the faith for the regenerate believer.

While it is certainly true that some who separate/depart from God were never believers,

Your own words say people can be with God (believers) then separate/depart from Him and were never believers...but now you say How can one be of the faith(believers) and not be true believers.... what are you saying????

 

[DeeR.]

I told you to read the English. If you don't believe that is what the verse plainly states, then it is incumbent upon you to explain it away. So far you have neglected to do so which only serves to further weaken your position. I already explained my interpretation; it's up to you to counter my reply based on what you think the verse states. If you desire to tackle it by all means, go ahead!

Try not to talk so much like a scholar and speak plainly. It is not with large eloquent words revelation of scripture is understood but in simplicity my friend. I am not in a knowledge debate with you over semantics. If semantics and etymology were the criteria to understand scripture we may debate like this, but I have no desire to debate with you in this manner, nor do I believe it edifies or glorifies. Every battle is not meant to be engaged. I do not believe this is coming from God so I must not engage in this at this time. Thank you for your thoughts and may God bless you.

 

[DeeR.]

We both agree that belief is required according to John 3:16. More precisely, "believing" is required as the Greek verb for belief is in the present tense indicating ongoing action. So one must continue believing in order to possess eternal life. If one no longer continues believing, then eternal life is not assured of.
Heb 5:9 states: "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," Again, the Greek verb tense for the word "obey" is in the present tense so one must continue "obeying" in order to possess eternal salvation. This verse cannot refer to a one-time moment of obedience as when one first obeyed/believed in Christ at conversion as the verb is not rendered in the aorist tense. So in answer to your question of what one is to do now? One's walk with Christ must be one of continued obedience if eternal life is to be had.

If understanding Greek was the criteria for knowing God's will many would be lost just because of the lack of education. Thank God it is given not to the wise or learned of this world, but to the simple and humble that even children can understand when it is He who speaks.

 

[DeeR.]

I think the, or one of the issues is how much is really us and really God in that... I do think there would at least some (form of) minimal cooperation on our part though...

In some way, big or small, our own will is involved... Maybe till were truly made perfect and perfected anyway...

And/but obedience to and in the Faith right...?, and the rule an Law (covenant) of Faith...? And the commandment, Love...? Or not...?

God Bless!

We are certainly involved just as a married couple are to be joined in agreement as one, and two must agree to walk together. Stay encouraged also, and know that all who are truly in Him will remain to the end because He is able to get all of us there. There is NOW therefore no condemnation for those who are in Jesus the Anointed One.

 

[Tayla]

Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

No one in the Old Testament was saved until Jesus died and appeared to them in Abraham's bosom preaching the gospel and taking those who believed to a happier place.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No one in the Old Testament was saved until Jesus died and appeared to them in Abraham's bosom preaching the gospel and taking those who believed to a happier place.

Saved in Abraham’s bosom is one still being saved. Christians who are truly faithful and do not justify grievous sin and die today go to Abraham’s bosom still. When the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first to meet the Lord in the air. After the first Rapture (Note: The second one being the Pre-Wrath Rapture), Christians who die will go to be with the Lord directly in heaven.

David also desired his salvation back in Psalms 51.
The Scriptures say, Those who crossed at the Red Sea had drank of that rock, and that Rock was Christ. Note: If you drink of Christ, you have life (See John 4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is certainly not so that Christians that are in Him will always want to obey his way or that they will not willfully disobey... they will not continue to do so forever though. There is always the old self/man/sin alive to fight, and even wins sometimes.

Not true. Please read 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

No, Jason, there will be "real...punishment" & torments in Hades & the lake of fire. But you'ld be willing to suffer that, even if it were for a trillion years, in favor of eating ice cream & watching Star Trek for a day or however long God let you live. Do you not see how foolish such a choice would be?



Sin is a matter of the heart which God sees. All willful premeditated sin in hateful rebellion against God is evil. Whether that involves murder or picking up sticks on the Sabbath/speeding is irrelevant.

Yet you give people licence* for certain sins by saying such sins will not be punished with endless punishment. Will God, then, let people into the New Jerusalem with such sins upon their souls? Since only sins that lose your salvation give you motivation to confess & forsake them, you have no motivation to confess & forsake such sins. In fact, you are free to indulge in them to your heart's content.

* While you accuse OSAS advocates doctrine of giving people a licence to sin.



If that were true, then you would do so even if hell were temporary & everyone in hell would be eventually saved. But you've denied that. So you are contradicting your earlier position. Earlier you said if those in hell will eventually be saved, then you'ld forsake God, eat ice cream & watch Star Trek movies. You wouldn't worry about going to hell. Now you are saying that sins that don't cause you loss of eventual salvation you'ld avoid because you "love Jesus". That's a contradiction of your previous remarks. Can't have it both ways Jason.

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Universalism is just ridiculous. It's not fair justice. Temporary suffering and then rewarding them later is not justice. Sorry. It just not reality. Universalism does not line up with true justice or the Bible. There is not one verse that supports it (and for good reason).

There are some things in life that you just don’t debate or discuss because they are so obviously silly. There are Christians who think porn is okay. This is about as crazy as that. Sorry, moving on from talking to you for a while (Especially when you are insulting me).

Side Note:

As for a person being punished for trillions of years in the Lake of Fire for eating ice cream and watching Star Trek instead of loving God: Yeah, that is a little extreme if you ask me. The punishment does not fit the crime. Would you torture people in flames for trillions of years for doing that? Why would you think God would do that? If you don't get why it is wrong, there is no use explaining it to you. A person should just know that certain things are wrong.