Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[Neogaia777]

Could the OSAS advocates argue as follows:

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in your faith...

This could mean if you don't continue in your faith, then you are not "now reconciled". Those who are now reconciled (i.e. saved) will continue in their faith. IOW not continuing in faith is evidence you are not "now reconciled". So to not "continue in your faith" is not necessarily evidence against OSAS or that one can be reconciled/saved & lose salvation.

The condition(s) for being "now reconciled" are:

Col.1:23a if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard...

If you don't fulfill those condition(s), then you are not "now reconciled". You might be reconciled some time in the future, but not "now".

My point is more along the lines of "are we judges of each others faith" or not...? Y/N...? And if so in any way, how...? or if not, "why" not...? (IOW's why, or the why, or why's to the "not"...?

God Bless!

 

[DeeR.]

Sorry but you have committed a logical fallacy. While it is certainly true that some who separate/depart from God were never believers, it does not logically nor scripturally entail that all who separate/depart were never believers. That would be like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs which is of course false.
Scripture certainly does not state that those who are truly his will remain and not be lost. Have you not read Col 1:23? "if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." The word IF indicates possibility NOT certainty. IF YOU CONTINUE in the faith.... This clause can only apply to genuine believers because an unsaved person cannot continue in the faith since he is not even in the faith to begin with. Only believers have the choice whether or not to continue in the faith. This verse clearly indicates that it is possible to not continue in the faith for the regenerate believer.

It also does not, sadly, state they are believers. To continue in the faith is an admonition for the nominal and the true. IF is indicative of the proof that shows who are truly His. For any scripture you point out there are many more that are showing your reasoning is at fault. Be at peace then approach the scriptures in prayer in humility. I don't want to argue or continue this with you since it is done in a poor spirit and will only try to persuade with human logic and reasoning.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Also, if you do believe sinners can stop sinning, then what is the point if you believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder?

Do you not see such a teaching as leading others INTO sin if you tell them King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Is this not making light of sin and it's true consequences as taught in the Bible?

You know, I do wish you would read everything a person says before you open your mouth.

I do not believe that sinners can stop sinning. I believe that those who have confessed their sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ can stop sinning as per Romans 6 to 8 and the point is, if you don't stop sinning you will die... eternally.

No I do not see that what I teach leads others INTO sin as you put it. I told you, by his act he was not saved but by God's mercy he was. However I also pointed out that God's mercy has a duration. You shall not tempt The Lord your God.

What my teaching does is, should a young believer or one who is unlearned come to me crying, "I have committed adultery, I am not saved anymore!"

I can gently show them that this is not the case if they are willing to repent and forsake their sin.

I do not know how you would help such a one because it appears you would be too busy condemning them. This may not be true, but it appears that way.

Listen, I was asked to go and visit a lady on the verge of committing suicide. I was 21 and had no experience in such things and looked to the pastor next to me who only encouraged me to go.

This lady was a new convert and saved only months. Her daughter had kicked her out of her own home and had her fired from work as a danger to herself because she might jump from the work window [7 stories] and kill herself.

Needless to say, she was in a state and confessing all the wrongs she may recently have done, both Scriptural and lawful [understand that I always believed it is necessary to obey the law wherever it doesn't contradict the Bible].

There was an assistant pastor from the church she attended who came visiting after I had arrived. We were very legalistic in those days [and I don't believe entirely wrong just, sometimes, we forgot about mercy].

As she listed all her wrongs, right down to the fact that her car was unregistered and the brakes didn't work; all the time lamenting the things that had happened the young pastor would answer, "Well, no wonder." Pointing to all her faults.

I felt the Spirit of The Lord rising up in me and I said, "Hang on, I don't believe this is what God is saying."

I began to speak to her from the Scriptures how if we confess our sins he will forgive us and how she would not be lost since Jesus was not going to just let go. I spoke to her of God's mercy and restorative powers. Every Scripture I quoted she would say, yes, I read that last night, or, this morning, afternoon, or, just before you came. It was fantastic to a young person such as I was.

I said to her, can't you see that God has already been speaking to you? I confirmed his love and desire for her as she had not seen it before. She wept, and wept, and wept.

I said to her, "I have already heard you confess, but to establish this in front of witnesses [there were 3 Chinese sisters (siblings) who had come to ask me] let us go through this again and you confess to God for he is the only one who needs to forgive you in prayer. There are witnesses should any doubt the veracity of your claim.

We did this praying for her and then sat sharing our tea on the black tin chests she had as furniture in an otherwise bare unit.

The transformation in that lady was amazing. A week later her face still shone, radiating the love she had for God. She certainly was not one who was continuing in sin as you suggest my teaching encourages.

 

[DeeR.]

Could the OSAS advocates argue as follows:

Col.1:22a But now he has reconciled you...23a if indeed you continue in your faith...

This could mean if you don't continue in your faith, then you are not "now reconciled". Those who are now reconciled (i.e. saved) will continue in their faith. IOW not continuing in faith is evidence you are not "now reconciled". So to not "continue in your faith" is not necessarily evidence against OSAS or that one can be reconciled/saved & lose salvation.

The condition(s) for being "now reconciled" are:

Col.1:23a if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard...

If you don't fulfill those condition(s), then you are not "now reconciled". You might be reconciled some time in the future, but not "now".

To continue speaks of until the end. ( If we remain until the end then we are reconciled to him, in proof. If we do not remain until the end we prove we are not truly reconciled and sincere). God knows those who are His and Jesus is able to keep them until the end those who are His.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When we are justified before God by the Cross of Christ, all sins to ever commit by us was atoned and paid for in full, as God declares us to be just as righteous as Jesus Himself now!

Yes, we know that this is was the OSAS/Eternal Security crowd believes. This is no where in the BIble and the opposite is there but it is what you believe because it is very comforting not because it is true. John said we need to confess our sins in order to be forgiven. He did not write all future sins are already forgiven so don't worry about your sins. The above statment by you is a license to sin and there are many who take that license and do.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

You are teaching a double message right now and you don't even know it.
You are teaching a contradiction.

Hand #1. - On the one hand, you say that you never tell others they can sin and still be saved.

Hand #2. - On the other hand, you admit that King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder, giving your listeners or followers the impression that they can be like a King David and be saved while committing murder and adultery (as long as they later repent or seek forgiveness with God at some later time). This is still teaching a license for immorality.
Even if it is for a short amount of time. You are telling a person they can abide in grievous sin for a short amount of time and that is okay with God (whereby He will save them). He's got them even when they commit horrible sin for a little while. But God places no statutes of limitations in regards to time when it comes to the crime. God does not say in His Word that a person's sin is absolved as long as you commit this sin for a short amount of time (that is then followed by repentance).

There is no contradiction in what I said, it is just that you cannot understand. There are not two hands here, it is the one hand. I cannot help the impressions you, or others get. I will say again, what you are claiming is not what I said. I have given no one a license for immorality and yet you insist I have. If they are like King David it will be because they are overtaken in a fault and it would not be in their nature to think as you say, "I can sin, repent, and get away with it."

This is what you cannot understand: David was overtaken in a fault. It was not David's belief system [which was The Law] but, led astray by wrong thinking he saw it as his only means of escape. That is a fault and a fault is not a sin unto death as you so erroneously claim. Yes, it was heinous but it was forgivable and God intended to forgive it. Finished. You can throw all the letter at it you wish [and, by the way, the word for letter in Greek is gramma, not Torah so don't talk rubbish to me, its getting annoying]; you can throw all the commandments you want at it. It makes no difference, God intended to forgive David and so he was saved [potentially, if you like].

Anyone who sins thinking, I will get away with it, will not get away with it because they do not serve God in Spirit and truth. Simples.

 

[DeeR.]

Do you believe future sin is forgiven for a believer?
Jason, all of these many words are not necessary. God saves us and is able to complete the renewing as we will all be sinning until we die...even Christians. No one is made perfect on this side at any point. Some are His and get wounded and sin by being stubborn or depressed or in many other ways some for many days months or years, but god alone knows how to lead them out and how long it will take. When a christian sins we are told to follow a way to confront them then if none of it works to cast them out as a brother/sister so the destruction of the flesh may be complete and the soul saved. We do so so they may repent quicker cause less damage and avoid many sorrows. We will be saved but hopefully not as one smelling like smoke just escaping the fire but as one who shines brightly. Remember in the scriptures How Israel was always Gods but kept sinning and repenting time and again. Israel is as 1 man. In the body of Israel there are bad cells and germs that are being purged causing the whole man to be sick again and again, yet the whole man Israel will be saved through constant purging and correction.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hebrews 6:4-6 and no, it can't happen again.

But you know, can anyone be recruicified? I mean how would this be done? It is like asking if any can again have their head chopped off.

I answered this in the second response.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hebrews 6:4-6 and no, it can't happen again.

HEre it is full:or as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Where does this say that Christ cannot be recrucified? I do not see "crucified again" or "recrucified" in that.

What is says is that they subject, not Christ, has crucified to THEMSELVES, not Christ, the Son of God afresh. In fact, it says that Christ is "recruficied" to that person, the opposite of your claim. Do you see that? Christ, according to this verse, is recrucified to that person.

 

[Neogaia777]

But you know, can anyone be recruicified? I mean how would this be done? It is like asking if any can again have their head chopped off.

I think there are some translations that say "It's as if" they crucify the Son of God/Jesus Christ/their own Messiah afresh anew, ect... Some I think say, "It's as if"... But I think it's over a specific kind of sin, like maybe some mentioned like apostasy...

God Bless!

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Are you referring to the same kind of grace that David received in the fact that he was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? If that is the kind of grace you are referring to, then that is not true Biblical grace, but it is turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

Yes, it is the same grace I speak of and it is only in your eyes that it turns God's grace into immorality.

 

[DeeR.]

Yes, we know that this is was the OSAS/Eternal Security crowd believes. This is no where in the BIble and the opposite is there but it is what you believe because it is very comforting not because it is true. John said we need to confess our sins in order to be forgiven. He did not write all future sins are already forgiven so don't worry about your sins. The above statment by you is a license to sin and there are many who take that license and do.

Be quick to listen and seek to first understand rather than be harsh or quick to correct. I do not think that is being said at all Dorothy. It is also not fair to label Yeshuafan under any labels. The scripture does support all Yeshua is saying abundantly. It is written that Jesus died once and for all for all sins and does not need to die continuously but lives to intercede. It is also a given that those who are saved live in repentance and are sorrowful of sin. Future sins are already paid for and forgiven.... we enter into this from faith to faith.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So what?

Well, it shows that his faith was not enough.

God doesn't provide a faith measuring stick that says you need to have greater than blah... blah... blah ... measurement of faith to get to heaven.

OK, again, it is time to move off of merely going to Heaven. Jesus himself told people they had not enough faith or they had great faith. THis is God measuring their faith. It is not done with a stick though. You need to see that Jesus taught more than merely getting to Heaven. This is something I have observed in OSAS believers. They are stuck on the subject of salvation or getting to heaven. That is it. They do not grow any farther and some think that is all there is.

Peter had faith and believed. His denying Christ never put his salvation in jeporady.

Judas decided not to believe but look for some lucrative way to move on and his lack of faith put his salvation in jeporady. You probably do not like the scripture "if you deny me before men I will deny you before my Father" but Jesus said it and meant it.

We all start out with a small morsel of faith and Christ in His love takes that faith, justifies us in His blood and gives us the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Some do not start out with a small morsel. Some have great faith from day one. Some do not grow in their faith as evidenced by the fruit in their lives. The Holy Spirit also increases in some and does not in others. And is some, the Holy Spirit is quenched out. That is why we need to take care it does not happen to us.

Pentecost didn't happen until Acts. None of the disciples had even the indwelling Holy Spirit nor Christ's blood as He was still alive (Christ).

So what?

The point is less that Peter sinned, but moreso Christ was showing Him that He would do 3 times what he swore just hours earlier he would never do. It was Christ showing him he needed more faith and to believe and trust upon God.

Where did Christ say he needed more faith and to believe and trust upon God? Where is that verse? Jesus spoke to him after the resurrection and I do not recall Jesus saying anything of the sort to Peter. You are making that up to shore up a sagging theology.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, it is the same grace I speak of and it is only in your eyes that it turns God's grace into immorality.

No, actually turning God's grace into a license to sin is in the Bible itself, not only in Jason's eyes. And you can read the testimony of Invaliduser who says that is what he did. He is not alone. There are lots who when tempted simply give in because it does not matter. They are saved no matter what sin they do to others so why refuse themselves a pleasure? In OSAS theology there is no strong reason that stands the test. In Jason's view, we have everything to lost although he says it is immediately and I say it is down the road if one does not repent and turn back.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

What do you make of those believers who say they cannot overcome grievous sin this side of Heaven but they believe they should strive to obey God? In other words, they do not think they can overcome grievous sin like lying, or lusting and yet they should strive to fight against these things. Yet, it is okay they do not overcome them because God still saves them because of their belief on Jesus. Do you think this belief is teaching a license for immorality?

I would say, why are you striving to overcome them? You already have the victory through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I have already told you I do not believe that theology that says you will never stop sinning in this life. That is a form of godliness denying the power thereof.

The answer is to let the victory of Jesus become a reality in you.

I have already said, do you not understand that forgiveness is the power not to do it again?

Do you not know that the sinless Christ has come to live in you? Let him live his sinlessness out through you.

God said, I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh to obey me. So he has made it easy. Just live in what he has given you.

Okay, I think 'nuff said.

 

[DeeR.]

Be quick to listen and seek to first understand rather than be harsh or quick to correct. I do not think that is being said at all Dorothy. It is also not fair to label Yeshuafan under any labels. The scripture does support all Yeshua is saying abundantly. It is written that Jesus died once and for all for all sins and does not need to die continuously but lives to intercede. It is also a given that those who are saved live in repentance and are sorrowful of sin. Future sins are already paid for and forgiven.... we enter into this from faith to faith.

He died for the sins of the whole world even for those who would never receive Him. It does not make it not true that they do not repent just that they do not enter into what He has paid for for them. Likewise, whether we sin again 7 x's or 70 x's against a fellow believer it doesn't mean He didn't pay for it already and give us His Grace for it past present and future....it means we can not receive it in fullness until we believe it through and through. Again we are not disowned because we do wrong we are disciplined. (We are not separated ever any longer as His ,who are truly His rather we will fall into loss and discipline until He brings usto where we need to be.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Be quick to listen and seek to first understand rather than be harsh or quick to correct. I do not think that is being said at all Dorothy. It is also not fair to label Yeshuafan under any labels. The scripture does support all Yeshua is saying abundantly. It is written that Jesus died once and for all for all sins and does not need to die continuously but lives to intercede. It is also a given that those who are saved live in repentance and are sorrowful of sin. Future sins are already paid for and forgiven.... we enter into this from faith to faith.

I have talked extensively with OSAS believers and heard the handfull of extracted verses twisted to assure them Heaven no matter how they behave. Scripture does not suppose OSAS at all and Jesus actually said many would fall away from the faith. The mental gymnastics OSAS believers do to deny that shows that scripture does not support it and warns believers about falling away. OSAS falsely comforts them that they cannot.

Scripture says that Jesus died once. It does not say that all future sins of man are therefore forgiven with no action on their part to play. iF you look at what some OSASers write, it is clear they are NOT living in repentance from sin but in full faith in oSAS. They go from faith in salvation to faith in salvation while having no fear of what their sin does to others or anything.

 

[DeeR.]

No, actually turning God's grace into a license to sin is in the Bible itself, not only in Jason's eyes. And you can read the testimony of Invaliduser who says that is what he did. He is not alone. There are lots who when tempted simply give in because it does not matter. They are saved no matter what sin they do to others so why refuse themselves a pleasure? In OSAS theology there is no strong reason that stands the test. In Jason's view, we have everything to lost although he says it is immediately and I say it is down the road if one does not repent and turn back.

DorothyMae that is not what Llewellyn is saying. Merely that saying David is God's never changed, even when he sinned. We all know it says some use the Grace of God as a license to sin ( they are deceivers and are the condemned as it is written, not the true believers)

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

No, actually turning God's grace into a license to sin is in the Bible itself, not only in Jason's eyes.

Sorry, I was saying that Jason claiming what I said turns God's grace into immorality. I know that the claim that grace gives license to sin has existed since the Bible days. That's a little different, I wasn't around then.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think there are some translations that say "It's as if" they crucify the Son of God/Jesus Christ/their own Messiah afresh anew, ect... Some I think say, "It's as if"... But I think it's over a specific kind of sin, like maybe some mentioned like apostasy...

God Bless!

Oh and I also think it could be "while they are" crucifying the Son of God, ect... Which means there is always still hope...

God Bless!