2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Paul answers you JLB. Paul says these believers are removed from Him. And still calls them brothers.

So, removed from him CANNOT be your false theory of loss of salvation.

So your answer is yes?

A person who is removed from Christ still has eternal life.
JLB

The problem is your failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

In the verse where you get the phrase "remove from Christ", it refers to being out of fellowship, not removed from salvation and eternal life.

But you won't believe the truth.

 

[LightLoveHope]

What does that mean? That they will be condemned???

If so, then please QUIT claiming that you believe in eternal security. Your security is clearly attached to a particular lifestyle, not on faith in Christ.

Hi Free,

It is obvious, and I really do mean obvious, when Paul says Israel were excluded because of unbelief, that is a real risk people have if they decide to distrust Jesus.

What appears to be being said, is losing ones faith is just a problem, which God will overlook not a betrayal and rejection of everything Jesus stands for.

And our faith is in Jesus, who leads us into the way of the Spirit and life.
To deny that the Kingdom is founded upon obedience and love of Gods will is to deny God himself. David was very sensitive to this very issue which he addresses in Psalms

They almost wiped me from the earth, but I have not forsaken your precepts.
Preserve my life according to your love, and I will obey the statutes of your mouth.
Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.
Psalm 119:87-89

Eternal security is in walking in Jesus and His ways. It is not a lifestyle, it is the fruit of our hearts, it is who we are.

When people use language as if following God is a take it or leave it choice and not the outworkings of His Spirit and truth in our lives, they have missed the whole point.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Since John 10:28 is so clear about eternal security, your statement here highly suggests that you don't really believe what Jesus said.

Free, you do me a diservice, saying I do not believe what Jesus said.
He said His people will never perish. The issue here is your way of defining His people, His sheep is different to mine. This highlights how being honest and giving grace to others is delivered in ones life.

Your approach appears to me like saying someone cannot drive a car because they are too tall or too short. The reason it appears so unusual, because Jesus talks to us about obedience and following Him as part of obtaining salvation.

Who succeeds and who fails is in whose hands? Paul shows how anxious he is to present everyone to God blameless and walking in faith at the Lords return. Pauls concern is simply because we are secure staying in Christ. Paul put it like this

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:2

Paul is saying clearly, believing and not holding firmly, is believing in vain.
If you can believe in vain, believe but lose salvation, holding firmly is essential.

Because some have no sensitivity to Paul and his heart, they dismiss this obvious concern, as if it does not exist, and the abandonment of the gospel is not losing salvation, or the promises.

Strangely the more I look the clearer Paul is.

work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Phil 2:12

Why? Because we stand before the Lord of Lords and nothing should be taken for granted, for we are a compromising people who easily wander away. Just look at the disciples in the church and how false teaching easily arose. Getting things right is no easy task.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is this not a sad scenario for you? It seems not. Based on all your post's, you should be giving the 3000 page's of do's and don'ts, the exact works and deeds, the exact commandments that cannot and can be bent a bit, the percentage of His ways we need to follow, and the list goes on and on.



Sad but true. Most believers have not a clue how to FELLOWSHIP correctly........seems by your responses, the orthodox, smorshadox church didn't know either.

And where was your church for the first 1500 years of Christianity? Any evidence of it at all?

 

[LightLoveHope]

WHEN a person believes, they BECOME a child of God. A new creation

You are right, the elect are eternal, their hearts sing in Praise to their King.
Now you seem to doubt this is true.

John says those who are born from on High cannot sin.
He is implying literally our hearts echo with the King and are deeply grieved if
we fail. This grieving brings us back to repentance and our love of God.

So you believe people falling away, is not testimony that they are not part of
the elect, but the elect who God will force into His Kingdom.

Now if a sheep returns, amen, they have proven they are part of the chosen.
God is soveriegn over all.

What underpins your theology is the missing link. God will perfect people
mysteriously at the final trumpet, rather than they will be perfect at the final
trumpet. It is no wonder we do not understand love, sin, perfection and love
in Jesus, so polluted and compromised are our hearts. But in truth this clarity
is coming clearer day after day.

If today I cannot stand cleansed, purified, Holy and acceptable to the Lord,
then what hope is there for me or anyone at any point in the future.

Paul emphasises Gods standing of His people before Him
"To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse"
"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy"
"To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints"

"who has saved us and called us to a holy life" 2 Tim 1:9

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

It is obvious, and I really do mean obvious, when Paul says Israel were excluded because of unbelief, that is a real risk people have if they decide to distrust Jesus.

No, your emotions have just led you astray again.

When Paul said that Israel was excluded, he wasn't speaking of those who HAD believed, and then "distrusted" Jesus.

If you don't believe that God's gift of eternal life isn't irrevocable, then you just don't really believe the Bible.

What appears to be being said, is losing ones faith is just a problem, which God will overlook not a betrayal and rejection of everything Jesus stands for.

Yes, it's a problem; a huge problem for those who lose faith. But it doesn't include losing their gift of eternal life.

It's just a real mystery that those who claim to worship the King can so ruthlessly NOT believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

Eternal security is in walking in Jesus and His ways.

OK, so you are admitting that eternal security is given on the basis of one's lifestyle (walking in Jesus).

So, which verse told you that? Huh?

It is not a lifestyle, it is the fruit of our hearts, it is who we are.

Well, you JUST said it WAS lifestyle, by the words "walking in Jesus". That's a lifestyle, since you don't seem to grasp the meaning of words.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Are you actually suggesting that if a believer who witnesses to someone and they don't believe on the spot, then the believer who witnessed really isn't a believer? Because

? Interesting interpretation of my words. I was commenting on if we do not have the Spirit we have nothing.

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Rom 8:9

Not sure where you link witnessing to someone else proves ones own faith is valid or not. This is about without the Holy Spirit in our hearts we are not part of Christ.

As Paul describes, we are temples of the Holy Spirit in Christ, He cleanses and purifies us so that we can be indwelt by Him.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Well, you JUST said it WAS lifestyle, by the words "walking in Jesus". That's a lifestyle, since you don't seem to grasp the meaning of words.

Lifestyle is right. The people of heaven have a heavenly life style.
We are called to live this lifestyle. But it is not a choice it is the
fruit of Gods work in our lives.

To not walk this way in Christ is to deny Christ.
But walking like Jesus is not a choice that unbelievers can make,
because without the Holy Spirit it is not possible. This has always
been our testimony, the work of Christ in our lives.

It is why using the word lifestyle implies different things than walking
with Jesus actually is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free, you do me a diservice, saying I do not believe what Jesus said.

No, I'm trying to do you a service, by telling you what the word of God says.

You just claimed that eternal security is in walking in Jesus, which is a lifestyle, even though you deny the obvious.

Jesus said in very clear words, that recipients of eternal life (I give them eternal life) shall never perish. That is eternal security, to NEVER PERISH. Obviously.

He said His people will never perish.

Just trying to change the words, huh? He was referring to recipients of eternal life, which are all those who have believed in Him. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Now, since you disagree, please look up each of these verses and explain to me how I am wrong about what these verses say.

The issue here is your way of defining His people, His sheep is different to mine.

Of course all your definitions are different than what the Bible says. Again, I invite you to address each of the 4 verses just above and try to prove that they don't say what I claim they do say.

This highlights how being honest and giving grace to others is delivered in ones life.

You know what? I agree. So then, please BEGIN to be honest about your not believing what Jesus said in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life are those who have believed. Period. But you are free to try to refute that from Scripture any time you feel the urge.

Your approach appears to me like saying someone cannot drive a car because they are too tall or too short.

This doesn't make any sense and is totally irrelevant to our discussion.

The reason it appears so unusual, because Jesus talks to us about obedience and following Him as part of obtaining salvation.

That's where you are dead wrong. But, go ahead and amuse me by quoting any verse that supports your claim here.

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:2

Please include v.1, which is direct context:
v.1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

This is PROOF that Paul considers his audience SAVED by the red words.

And this verse MUST BE understood in order to understand v.2.

Now, the "if" in v.2 is a "first class condition", and in the Greek that means assumed to be TRUE. So again, Paul is affirming their salvation. We can translate the 'if' as "since".

And the words "hold firmly" in the Greek is one word, and means 'possess', not anything about your ability to grasp and hold.

The words "in vain" in the Greek mean "without reason". iow, faith requires a goal or purpose. You can't believe in something unless you have a goal or purpose in WHY you are believing in something.

So, with that bit of education, let's listen to what Paul really was saying:
"By this gospel you are saved, SINCE you POSSESS the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed WITHOUT REASON."

Those who believe POSSESS salvation. That's the goal of one's faith in Christ in the first place.

See? Very simple.

But I know you won't address any of my points here.

Paul is saying clearly, believing and not holding firmly, is believing in vain.

Nope. Read my explanation.

If you can believe in vain, believe but lose salvation, holding firmly is essential.

Sure. Without reason, and you won't be saved. And "holding firmly" means to possess.

Because some have no sensitivity to Paul and his heart, they dismiss this obvious concern, as if it does not exist, and the abandonment of the gospel is not losing salvation, or the promises.

Because some have no sensitivity to the FACTS of what the Greek words mean, they dismiss the real meaning of Paul's words.

I'm trying to do you a service.

Strangely the more I look the clearer Paul is.

Not even close.

work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Phil 2:12

This refers to the present tense of salvation, of which there are 2 other tenses as well.

past tense; saved from the penalty of sin. This is our justification
present tense; saved from the power of sin. This is our sanctification and requires being in fellowship through confession of sin and the filling of the Holy Spirit.
future tense; saved from the presence of sin. This is our glorification.

So, what is 'worked out' isn't getting saved. It's about spiritual growth.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No, your emotions have just led you astray again.

When Paul said that Israel was excluded, he wasn't speaking of those who HAD believed, and then "distrusted" Jesus.

Free, again you are saying what cannot be said truthfully.
We interpret someones words, but to admit that for you would be like admitting defeat. I accept you believe your interpretation, I am glad you are reading scripture and looking at its meaning.

I do not agree with your view, and am pointing out what is obvious in Pauls extension and warning. He is addressing his readers that they are grafted in because of those who were excluded through unbelief.

So the key issue for exclusion is unbelief.
In your view, unbelief in not accepting eternal security is lethal.
But unbelief after snatching for any length of time, belief is not lethal.

Do you not see you are being completely situational, subjective, biased?
Either unbelief is lethal and causes exclusion or it does not.

God gave Israel all the promises similar to Jesus and His promises.
If Israel are excluded through unbelief from the promises so are we.
And this is exactly what Paul is saying.

But you cannot agree with this because it would undermine your whole position. So of course you want an exception.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are right, the elect are eternal, their hearts sing in Praise to their King.
Now you seem to doubt this is true.

And what drives you to this lack of faith in what I believe?

John says those who are born from on High cannot sin.

OK, more unbiblical belief. So, are you one of those "I do not sin anymore" types?

So, let's examine what 1 John 3:9 REALLY says.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

The red words refer to our NEW nature, the nature that makes us a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). So, in the verse, the words "born of God", found twice, is a reference to that new nature.

Peter said it this way:
1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Yet, you continue to believe that someone who has been born again of imperishable seed, can perish. You are in direct opposition to the word of God.

But, back to 1 Jn 3:9: what John is saying is that from the believer's NEW NATURE, they cannot sin.

This is what Gr8Grace and I have been trying to teach you. When the believer is in fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Holy Spirit, they are functioning from their new nature, and therefore, cannot sin.

But, when the believer is out of fellowship, by failing to confess their sins, looking at "things below" rather than "things above", and grieving and/or quenching the Spirit, they are functioning from their old sinful nature.

iow, the ONLY WAY a believer can sin is when they are out of fellowship.

So you believe people falling away, is not testimony that they are not part of
the elect, but the elect who God will force into His Kingdom.

It seems you accept the erroneous definition of 'elect' that Calvinists accept.

Well, the doctrine of election has nothing to do with being chosen for salvation, but rather, being chosen for service.

What underpins your theology is the missing link.

Yeah, the missing link is TRUTH. And it's missing from your theology. Not mine.

If today I cannot stand cleansed, purified, Holy and acceptable to the Lord,
then what hope is there for me or anyone at any point in the future.

If you continue to not listen to what Gr8Grace and I have been telling you about how to stand cleansed, purified, then there isn't any hope for you at all.

Paul emphasises Gods standing of His people before Him
"To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse"
"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy"
"To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints"

"who has saved us and called us to a holy life" 2 Tim 1:9

Being called and elected or chosen totally overlap. And 2 Tim 1:9 shows that we have been chosen for service.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Of course all your definitions are different than what the Bible says. Again, I invite you to address each of the 4 verses just above and try to prove that they don't say what I claim they do say.

"Of course all your definitions are different than what the Bible says"

This is the problem with your language. Unless you can admit theologians, denominations, believers do not agree with you. And they validly with a good heart walk in the Lord with the Holy Spirit. If you cannot accept them as brothers and sisters in Christ, you are just defaming believers.

Jesus is Lord. With a changed heart, walking in repentance and love, we can walk into eternity with Him.

Defaming the people of God invalidates other positions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

? Interesting interpretation of my words. I was commenting on if we do not have the Spirit we have nothing.

Well then, your words were as clear as mud. Those who do not have the Spirit never believed. So please leave me out of your "we" comments. I DO have the Spirit.

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Rom 8:9

This describes every unbeliever; those who NEVER believed.

Not sure where you link witnessing to someone else proves ones own faith is valid or not.

From one of your confusing posts.

This is about without the Holy Spirit in our hearts we are not part of Christ.

Again, that would be about unbelievers.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can leave a believer?

As Paul describes, we are temples of the Holy Spirit in Christ, He cleanses and purifies us so that we can be indwelt by Him.

So, basically then, you seem to believe that we are in charge of whether we are indwelt by the Spirit. Is that your view? It sure seems to be.

If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

God places the Holy Spirit in us. It's not our choice, and we do NOT have any power or authority in this area. So don't kid yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Well, you JUST said it WAS lifestyle, by the words "walking in Jesus". That's a lifestyle, since you don't seem to grasp the meaning of words."

Lifestyle is right. The people of heaven have a heavenly life style.

So, then, basically, you believe that one is saved by their lifestyle.

That is what the Pharisees believed. And they were as wrong as rain.

We are called to live this lifestyle.

Yes, but NOT for salvation. For spiritual growth.

To not walk this way in Christ is to deny Christ.[/QUOTE]
That is correct, and what Paul told Tim in 2 Tim 2:12.

But walking like Jesus is not a choice that unbelievers can make,
because without the Holy Spirit it is not possible. This has always
been our testimony, the work of Christ in our lives.

You are confusing and conflating being filled with the Spirit with getting saved. They are distinctly separate. One can only be filled with the Spirit AFTER they have believed and are born again of imperishable seed.

It seems you do not know or believe that.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No, I'm trying to do you a service, by telling you what the word of God says.

Jesus calls me to turn the other cheek, so I forgive you.
Arrogance and writing others off is not a way the Lord works.

I am happy to debate views with believers about why they hold security in Christ, or are humbled by our walk and care in working out our salvation in fear and trembling.

But this necessitates faith in one another. You appear to have no faith in my standing in Christ. So I must abandon this interaction. I will witness to how the Lord has moved in my heart, and leave you in your position, whatever it is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So the key issue for exclusion is unbelief. In your view, unbelief in not accepting eternal security is lethal.

Again, you are wrong. I never said those who don't believe in eternal security are not saved. Such people simply do not believe what Jesus said.

But unbelief after snatching for any length of time, belief is not lethal.

I can't make heads or tails of this sentence. Please re-phrase.

Do you not see you are being completely situational, subjective, biased?

Are you kidding? That's your territory completely.

I am grounded in FACTS; what Jesus says. All the way.

But you cannot agree with this because it would undermine your whole position. So of course you want an exception.

I'm not giving any exceptions. How silly.

The FACTS are these:
1. eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23 says so.
2. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29 says so.

So, prove to me that Paul didn't mean to include the gift of eternal life in the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Of course all your definitions are different than what the Bible says"

This is the problem with your language.

Are my words not clear enough to you?

Unless you can admit theologians, denominations, believers do not agree with you.

Maybe you're just not aware of the FACT that theologians and denominations have been in disagreement throughout the ages. So what?

Jesus is Lord. With a changed heart, walking in repentance and love, we can walk into eternity with Him.

Wrong again. With the gift of eternal life, we will walk into eternity with Him.

And, if we walk in repentance and love (meaning be filled with the Spirit) we will have an "abundant entrance" into the kingdom, per 2 Pet 1:11.

Defaming the people of God invalidates other positions.

Actually, disbelieving what Jesus says defames oneself.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do we have the Spirit?

This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands.
1 John 5:2-3

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.
1 John 3:10-11

Love. We are children of our Father when we put the interests of His people at the top of our agenda.

One will notice this is we are children of God based on how we behave and what is in our hearts.

Some suggest actually it is irrelevant what is in our hearts, its whether an angel can go through our past and find the magic ticket of faith that proves we have approval for divine perfecting. How much further away from scripture can you get and Johns declaration?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"No, I'm trying to do you a service, by telling you what the word of God says."

Jesus calls me to turn the other cheek, so I forgive you.

Good grief!! You don't need to forgive me for doing you a service.

Arrogance and writing others off is not a way the Lord works.

I agree. And doing others a service is exactly what the Lord wants all of us to do.

I am happy to debate views with believers about why they hold security in Christ, or are humbled by our walk and care in working out our salvation in fear and trembling.

The reason that believers "hold security in Christ" is because of what He has said.

Why don't you hold security in Christ?

But this necessitates faith in one another. You appear to have no faith in my standing in Christ.

You continue to fail to understand most, at least, of what I say. I have no faith in your views; not your standing in Christ.

If you have put your full trust in Christ's work on the cross for salvation, then you are a child of God, born again of imperishable seed (meaning you will never perish), a new creation.

So I must abandon this interaction. I will witness to how the Lord has moved in my heart, and leave you in your position, whatever it is.

My position has been clear from the start. And you still wonder what it is.

 

[LightLoveHope]

As an observation, some do not understand what is reasonable interaction and what is abuse. This is the whole point. The behaviour testifies to what is in the heart.

I am sure in peoples minds there are special angels that will go round heaven making sure the right version of everything is understood, and there is only one version, the official one, and if you get it wrong, its out you go.

When I was thinking about Gods will, you think at a road junction should I go left or right? Is there a plan for my life, which I could slip off from?

But Jesus says, let us talk together, get to know one another and agree a way proceed. Where two or three gather, and agree, that will be done.

The Kingdom is based upon listening, considering and agreeing in love.
A stunningly different approach to many that I see.

Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them
Matt 18:19-20

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

Communion with God, agreement, working things out as we walk.