Church of Constantinople officially recognizes the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate

[searn77]

it'd be akin to me going to the RC forum, and telling a disgruntled Catholic what to do about Pope Francis. my POV as Orthodox adds nothing to their discussion.

No it isn't. JasonV wasn't telling anyone what to do about the Ecumenical Patriarch, so it's not analogous to your comparison. This is a discussion board and he was discussing the topic at hand. I understand that him and I aren't considered Orthodox according to this forum's statement of faith, so if you feel the need to call us schismatics when we post, that's your choice. But it shouldn't mean that he gets falsely accused of something he's not doing (i.e. telling you how to properly deal with schismatics).

 

[ArmyMatt]

No it isn't. JasonV wasn't telling anyone what to do about the Ecumenical Patriarch, so it's not analogous to your comparison. This is a discussion board and he was discussing the topic at hand. I understand that him and I aren't considered Orthodox according to this forum's statement of faith, so if you feel the need to call us schismatics when we post, that's your choice. But it shouldn't mean that he gets falsely accused of something he's not doing (i.e. telling you how to properly deal with schismatics).

good point and you are right.

so it would be like me offering an opinion on Pope Francis to a disgruntled Catholic.

either way, it's not my place to give such an opinion on their forum when not asked.

 

[E.C.]

So we officially have a schism in the Orthodox Church.

Give it time. Russians typically don't take interference in their neighborhood too lightly.

I think either the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox should fix the naming issue that confuses a lot of people into think their all the same Church.

Or we could just reunite

I am trying to stay neutral with the way that I say this, and not exacerbate the drama, but I question why Constantinople is only doing this in Ukraine. Why not Belarus for instance? It certainly seems that there is a strong political motivation here, despite the fact that Bartholomew claims his recognition of the schismatics is done on merits of principal alone. If every independent country deserves a completely autcephalous church, then why hasn't Constantinople granted such privileges to Finnish Orthodox Church for instance, which it presides over.

I am not saying the Russians are innocent in this whole scenario either, but my mind can't ignore the inconsistencies behind Constantinople's actions. Even though many of Moscow's actions are rooted in banal nationalism, at least their position is straightforward and understandable to me, even if some aspects of it are troubling. I can't rationalize Bartholomew's actions on the other hand.

A few things about the difference between Belarus and Ukraine (at least in this situation)

1) historically, or at least the past two centuries, Belarus has been "closer" to Russia than Ukraine has. Even today the Church in Belarus is an exarchate I believe of the Russian Patriarchate. Belurisians have no foreseeable intentions of changing that status.

2) Ukrainian people have really received the short end of the stick compared to their Belarusian counterparts. A great example would be the Holomodor Genocide intentionally caused by the predominately Russian-run USSR. Or the various forced changes of property between the various sects under Communism. Many Ukrainian Catholic properties were seized by the Communists and given to the Orthodox. I don't think many were given back after the Wall fell.

3) Ukrainian Nationalism and the upcoming presidential election. The current Ukrainian government is run by nationalists. The nationalists are not all that popular in Ukraine because this mess going on the last five or so years was caused by the nationalists. So, the Ukrainian government petitioned the EP for autocephaly in a desparate bid to increase their popularity for the upcoming presidential election.

4) the continued decline of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. St John of Shanghai and San Francisco spoke about this in the 1930s and it exists on the internet. It is just as true today as it was in his day. This is another way for the EP to gain influence.


I think this whole mess is a travesty. I hate to sound overly pessimistic, but it would not be the first time that an entire Apostolic See left the Orthodox Church.

 

[Platina]

Their call for peace and not capturing churches comes off as so disingenuous. They know darn well it's already been happening and will only ramp up now.

 

[Barney2.0]

Give it time. Russians typically don't take interference in their neighborhood too lightly.


Or we could just reunite


A few things about the difference between Belarus and Ukraine (at least in this situation)

1) historically, or at least the past two centuries, Belarus has been "closer" to Russia than Ukraine has. Even today the Church in Belarus is an exarchate I believe of the Russian Patriarchate. Belurisians have no foreseeable intentions of changing that status.

2) Ukrainian people have really received the short end of the stick compared to their Belarusian counterparts. A great example would be the Holomodor Genocide intentionally caused by the predominately Russian-run USSR. Or the various forced changes of property between the various sects under Communism. Many Ukrainian Catholic properties were seized by the Communists and given to the Orthodox. I don't think many were given back after the Wall fell.

3) Ukrainian Nationalism and the upcoming presidential election. The current Ukrainian government is run by nationalists. The nationalists are not all that popular in Ukraine because this mess going on the last five or so years was caused by the nationalists. So, the Ukrainian government petitioned the EP for autocephaly in a desparate bid to increase their popularity for the upcoming presidential election.

4) the continued decline of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. St John of Shanghai and San Francisco spoke about this in the 1930s and it exists on the internet. It is just as true today as it was in his day. This is another way for the EP to gain influence.


I think this whole mess is a travesty. I hate to sound overly pessimistic, but it would not be the first time that an entire Apostolic See left the Orthodox Church.

The Ukrainians seem to want their independence from the Russian Church and who are we to stop them. The reunion between the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox won’t happen unless the Oriental Orthodox end up renouncing Miaphysitism and accepting the council of Chalcedon as legitimate, which I’m sure won’t happen any time soon.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Ukrainians seem to want their independence from the Russian Church and who are we to stop them. The reunion between the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox won’t happen unless the Oriental Orthodox end up renouncing Miaphysitism and accepting the council of Chalcedon as legitimate, which I’m sure won’t happen any time soon.

the canons are what should stop them. you don't just decide independence because you want it. that's not how the Church works.

 

[FenderTL5]

the canons are what should stop them..

from Regarding the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine (Sept 28, 2018)
"This decision was made after extensive study and discussion based on the responsibilities and rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate as enumerated by the sacred canons, and the historical reality that in 1589 when the Church of Russia received its status as a patriarchate from the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Metropolis of Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, was not included but remained under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. Additionally, within the Patriarchal and Synodal “Praxis” (act) of 1686 there is further affirmation that the Ukraine remained under the Ecumenical Patriarchate."

What is the alternative view and basis?

 

[Platina]

What is the alternative view and basis?

Priest Mikhail Zheltov. Historical-Canonical Basis for the Unity of the Russian Church

 

[~Anastasia~]

Speaking of alternative views, can anyone who knows comment on this?

A Memorandum to the Orthodox Christian Clergy and Laity regarding Unity In Ukraine - Archon News Article - Order of Saint Andrew the Apostle, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate

This is way above my "pay grade" and not something for me to worry about, but I do desire to have a basic understanding.

Thank you all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

from Regarding the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine (Sept 28, 2018)
"This decision was made after extensive study and discussion based on the responsibilities and rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate as enumerated by the sacred canons, and the historical reality that in 1589 when the Church of Russia received its status as a patriarchate from the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Metropolis of Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, was not included but remained under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. Additionally, within the Patriarchal and Synodal “Praxis” (act) of 1686 there is further affirmation that the Ukraine remained under the Ecumenical Patriarchate."

What is the alternative view and basis?

that Filaret, being anathematized by a canonical bishop, cannot be reinstated by another bishop, especially with no penance.

plus, up until this whole mess, Constantinople treated Kiev as being under Moscow, and that the schismatics were always schismatics.

 

[JasonV]

I have zero idea what "World Orthodoxy" even is?

The term “World Orthodoxy” refers to those patriarchates and autocephalous churches who would fall under the 1983 anathema pronounced by ROCOR's synod of bishops.

It's interesting to me how newbie Orthodox seem more fascinated with splinter groups and who commemorates whom during the liturgy than seasoned Orthodox or cradles.

Perhaps due to the amount of study the newly illumined have undertaken, versus cradle orthodox who may never have studied the history and canons of the church?

 

[Dorothea]

the canons are what should stop them. you don't just decide independence because you want it. that's not how the Church works.

In my ignorance of all that goes on in Russia and Ukraine, I thought Ukraine was part of Russia. Learn something every day.

 

[TheLostCoin]

In my ignorance of all that goes on in Russia and Ukraine, I thought Ukraine was part of Russia. Learn something every day.

Well, during the time in which the Soviet Union existed, Ukraine was technically a part of "Russia", if by "Russia" you mean the whole Soviet Union.
Since the Soviet Union collapsed, however, Ukraine has been an independent nation from Russia.

 

[RobNJ]

In my ignorance of all that goes on in Russia and Ukraine, I thought Ukraine was part of Russia. Learn something every day.

Part of the problem... Some in Ukraine hear the word "Moscow", and think of "friends, and family." ... Some, think of decades of "enemy occupation"

While that shouldn't be part of a discussion of The Church, it's unavoidable, to the people involved

 

[GoingByzantine]

Well, during the time in which the Soviet Union existed, Ukraine was technically a part of "Russia", if by "Russia" you mean the whole Soviet Union.
Since the Soviet Union collapsed, however, Ukraine has been an independent nation from Russia.

More than just that, Ukraine is the cultural hearth of not just the Ukrainians but also the Russians and Belorussians. It is in Kiev where Orthodoxy first took root among the russian people. The state entity at the time was literally called "Kievan Rus", and was a confederation of Russians and Ukrainians, this state served as the predecessor to Russia.

So basically the EP is claiming that this land is his jurisdiction, which does not sit well with many slavs who consider this the birthplace of their culture(s). That would be like if Putin claimed Washington DC fell under his jurisdiction, and always had.

 

[ArmyMatt]

In my ignorance of all that goes on in Russia and Ukraine, I thought Ukraine was part of Russia. Learn something every day.

that's what everyone thought until a few months ago.

 

[tapi]

that's what everyone thought until a few months ago.

wat..? American ignorance. No offence but this is just crazy from an European POV. I learned my geography back in the late 90's and never thought anything like this

 

[ArmyMatt]

wat..? American ignorance. No offence but this is just crazy from an European POV. I learned my geography back in the late 90's and never thought anything like this

I thought she meant as far as the Church goes, haha.

 

[gzt]

I found this fairly reasonable: Can History Solve the Conflict about Ukrainian Autocephaly?

 

[rusmeister]

the canons are what should stop them. you don't just decide independence because you want it. that's not how the Church works.