Where do you get your morals from?

[DogmaHunter]

I think you just proved my point. We have swapped one evil for another and you don't even see it.

Right, right....

Punishing criminals with a jail sentence is "so evil".
Yeah, we should instead "love" our criminals, forgive them and just let them roam free in our society.


:rolleys:

 

[Ken-1122]

I think you just proved my point. We have swapped one evil for another and you don't even see it.

I don't see the prison system as evil, I see it as necessary. But even if it were evil; the fact that we had the prison system in place during and even long before slavery, refutes your claim that we swapped the evil of slavery for the evil of the prison system. IOW your argument fails.

 

[Ken-1122]

Instead we compel prisoners, by force, against doing any breeding.

So what's your point? Because we don't provide women for male prisoners to have sex with, this means prison is equal to slavery? Is this the point you are trying to make?

 

[Jon Osterman]

I don't see the prison system as evil, I see it as necessary. But even if it were evil; the fact that we had the prison system in place during and even long before slavery, refutes your claim that we swapped the evil of slavery for the evil of the prison system. IOW your argument fails.

No-one is saying the idea of prison is evil, but the implementation of it in the US is. It has been trusted to private companies with a vested interest in keeping people enslaved. This was not happening on a commercial scale during the days of "actual" slavery.

 

[Halbhh]

I think today, there's a LOT more social awareness concerning such practices, yes.
I think today, you'ld be hard pressed to find people who would think such things are okay.

Back in the day, it was a lot easier to get people to engage in it AND get away with it.
Today, you won't be getting away with it. The world will be coming after you.

Sadly I fear that ethnic cleansing is perfectly fine in the viewpoints of some number, maybe even 20-40% of Americans, if we remove the euphemism (the false cover) of 'deporting illegals' , and call it what it is -- a true racial prejudice against latinos.

That's not really "hard pressed" to find, I'm sad to say.

I wish you were right that it was hard to find.

That day will come, after Christ remakes the world.

 

[durangodawood]

So what's your point? Because we don't provide women for male prisoners to have sex with, this means prison is equal to slavery? Is this the point you are trying to make?

Prison averages out to 83.7% slavery. Thats my point.

Not that its important to the OP question one way or the other.

 

[ExTiff]

In "a way". So, really: no. Only maybe, if you redefine what "selling" means.

Is there a qualitative difference between 'owning' something and 'being responsible' for something? Animals are 'owned' by their owners. Prisoners are the 'responsibility' of the state. Animal owners can sell their animals to the highest bidder to get the best price for them. The state can relinquish responsibility for prisoners by awarding contracts to private companies which will assume the state's responsibility 'for a price'. Usually at a lower cost to the state than it would otherwise have incurred. So the prisoners are effectively 'sold' to the lowest bidding private 'carer / jailor'.
.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Do we still keep slaves? Why not?
Do we still have systems of apartheid? Why not?
Are women still primarily breeding vessels confined to the kitchen? Why not?
Do we still have barbaric public executions? Why not?
Do we have things like animal rights these days? Why do we?

How come it is like that today, while no more then 300 years ago, it was very very different?

Yes there is still slavery.
Yes There are still systems that discriminate against people based upon things like race, religion, political ideology.
Women were never primarily breeding vessels confined to the kitchen.
Yes there are still barbaric executions.
Animals still have no rights.

People still are basically self centered just as they always have been.

 

[grasping the after wind]

For me morality is about the ability to understand the consequences of actions and how those actions affect me and my neighbor. And it starts from the position that what is helpful and fair to me and my neighbor is good and right, and what is harmful and unfair to me and my neighbor is bad and wrong.

What about what is helpful to you and harmful to your neighbor or vice versa? And how do you know that you are not , at least subconsciously , stacking the deck in your favor .

 

[Ken-1122]

No-one is saying the idea of prison is evil, but the implementation of it in the US is.

Then let me rephrase; I don't see the implementation of the prison system in the US as evil. It may not be perfect; nothing is, but it definitely isn't evil.

It has been trusted to private companies with a vested interest in keeping people enslaved. This was not happening on a commercial scale during the days of "actual" slavery.

But those private companies don't have a say so in who goes to prison. So it doesn't matter if they have a vested interest or not; they are powerless in who goes there.

 

[Ken-1122]

Prison averages out to 83.7% slavery. Thats my point.

Prisoners have rights because they aren't owned by anyone; that makes it 0% slavery. That's MY point.

 

[Ken-1122]

What about what is helpful to you and harmful to your neighbor or vice versa?

What constitutes helpful vs harmful is determined exclusively by me.

And how do you know that you are not , at least subconsciously , stacking the deck in your favor .

That’s where the subjectivity comes in at; I don’t know. I’m not perfect; all I can do is the best that I can.

 

[grasping the after wind]

What constitutes helpful vs harmful is determined exclusively by me.

That’s where the subjectivity comes in at; I don’t know. I’m not perfect; all I can do is the best that I can.

Let me restate the question. If you determine that an action you might take is helpful to you but harmful to your neighbor, or lets make it extreme, to everyone else but you. What would be the correct moral course for you to take. And would you be justified if you decide that your moral compass centers around the fact that you are the central most important figure in the universe to yourself and that therefore the action that harms everyone else but helps you is the morally upright action to take.

 

[Neogaia777]

When I read the bible and observe the many immoralities contained therein, I'm heavily inclined to disagree.

In the OT, yes, but there was a point to all that, the Old Covenant, (it was to reveal to man, something about man, that he needed saving from) (And so, the OC and OT, especailly after the Law, was a very dark period, and would be a very dark period of time, with what the law was actually meant to do)...

After Christ we are under a/the New Covenant, (which is where the saving part comes in) with what would appear to be a whole different moral philosophy, and yet it's not, and there is a point to all that as well...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

In the OT, yes, but there was a point to all that, the Old Covenant, (it was to reveal to man, something about man, that he needed saving from) (And so, the OC and OT, especailly after the Law, was a very dark period, and would be a very dark period of time, with what the law was actually meant to do)...

After Christ we are under a/the New Covenant, (which is where the saving part comes in) with what would appear to be a whole different moral philosophy, and yet it's not, and there is a point to all that as well...

God Bless!

The law made nothing perfect, (but the entering in of a better and new covenant with Christ afterward, and better hope, did, or does, or can... anyway) The law made nothing perfect, in fact, far from it, and one it's real, true intended purposes was to make the sin of man abound, and become even more sinful, and much worse, and more wicked, and more sick...

And there was A Godly point(s) to be made with that, in the OT, under the OC, However, after Christ and under the NC with Christ, things are different, changed from what they formerly were, the purposes and points God had to make first, back then, are done away with and not the same now, and not the same, after Christ...

 

[Neogaia777]

God has this unique view or perspective, and it shows in the OT, Like he might say to us: "Anything you (man) cause(s), that I (God) allow to happen, I caused to happen, cause I am God, and that is just the way it is with me, nothing is, will, or can even happen, not even a man breathing, apart from my will, or my allowing it to happen, or causing it to happen, for they are the same with me... EVERYTHING needs my permission and/or consent, everything to happen, occur, take place, whatever... Some might say that makes me responsible by default...

This shows in the OT...

When He says "I will cause this or that horrible thing to happen", he is allowing it, and where he says "And you will", ect, he is prophecying it, in that he could spare us from it, but He chooses not to, until he chooses to, and that is His right as God... But he does tell us ahead of time... Tires to warn us and show us that if we would just repent... He'd step in and change it all, all that he had said... Anyway...

With God there is no difference between allowing something to happen or take place, and personally doing it or causing, or committing the act yourself...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If anything one of law's purposes was tearing of the bandage quickly rather than slowly... Or to make the healing come sooner rather than later...

God Bless!

 

[Ken-1122]

Let me restate the question. If you determine that an action you might take is helpful to you but harmful to your neighbor, or lets make it extreme, to everyone else but you. What would be the correct moral course for you to take.

A different course of action because it goes against my moral beliefs.

And would you be justified if you decide that your moral compass centers around the fact that you are the central most important figure in the universe to yourself and that therefore the action that harms everyone else but helps you is the morally upright action to take.

Of course not; I’m better than that.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Sadly I fear that ethnic cleansing is perfectly fine in the viewpoints of some number, maybe even 20-40% of Americans, if we remove the euphemism (the false cover) of 'deporting illegals' , and call it what it is -- a true racial prejudice against latinos.

That's not really "hard pressed" to find, I'm sad to say.

I wish you were right that it was hard to find.

That day will come, after Christ remakes the world.

Ethnic cleansing would consist of massacring all latino's.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes there is still slavery.
Yes There are still systems that discriminate against people based upon things like race, religion, political ideology.
Women were never primarily breeding vessels confined to the kitchen.
Yes there are still barbaric executions.
Animals still have no rights.

People still are basically self centered just as they always have been.

Ow look, another one who's lying for "the cause".