Brother Billy

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As an atheist, I don't think that humans get a top down morality imposed on them from an outside source. Instead, human morality has been developed from the bottom up. Just like every other physical and mental trait that humans possess, our conscience has evolved because it has helped our species survive. For most of our evolutionary history, we lived in small bands in very hostile environments where starvation, wild animals, enemy tribes and the elements threatened our existence at every turn. If we didn't care for our family members or didn't form cooperative relationships with others based on reciprocity and fairness, or if we regularly engaged in incest, our species would have gone extinct long ago.

I would argue that humans had a conscience long before the first religions appeared and this forms the basis for all moral systems throughout the world and throughout history. Moral systems were/are further influenced by culture and tradition. Certain behaviors might be considered deeply immoral in one culture, while at the same time be perfectly acceptable in others (e.g footbinding in ancient China, gladiatorial combat in ancient Rome, polygamy etc)

Humans created religion themselves and tried to codify what evolution had already given us (e.g. the Golden Rule) into their religions together with other "morals" such as "don't work on the Sabbath" or "don't worship other gods except me" etc.

Most people don't actually get their morals from the Bible, and to the extent that they do, they just pick and choose the nice bits (such as love your neighbor) and ignore the nasty bits (such as those that condone evils like slavery, genocide, rape, etc).


Do you believe that humans have always been able to tell right from wrong and have they always been capable of doing evil? What about Adam and Even, the Fall and it's consequences? How do you reconcile all these with evolution? See my other thread here: How do you reconcile Evolution and Genesis?
 
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Tolworth John

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You have never worked with small children. They have an inbuilt sense of what is or is not fair.

This is built on by family life, and by society.

This of course means that atheisists in the west have a morality based on Christianity. Which makes for amusing discussions as they seek to attack Christianity for being immoral while using Christianities moral bases for there attack.

Could you define the influences on your morality that are not Christian and are superior.
 
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Brother Billy

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You have never worked with small children. They have an inbuilt sense of what is or is not fair.

Nothing that I said suggests otherwise. I agree with you. Normal human babies have an instinctual awareness of fairness and can empathize with others.


This is built on by family life, and by society.

Yes I agree. My view is that society and family life allow babies to develop their moral intuitions and ethics much faster than if they were left alone by themselves. However I don't think babies would necessarily grow up into immoral thugs if they had no guidance from parents or society. All humans throughout the world and throughout history are born with certain common morals. These were given to us by evolution. Examples include:
  • care for family members
  • don't kill or harm family members
  • don't have sex with close family members
  • don't cheat others
  • be kind to people that you meet on a regular basis
I'm not saying that all humans follow the above all the time. Of course we have a choice on how we behave and sometimes we do cheat others. But a normal person would feel guilty, right? This would serve to discourage such behavior in future. Our morals are also influenced by culture and tradition. There are certain things that are considered deeply immoral in one culture (e.g. watching criminals dying in the arena for fun) which are perfectly acceptable in others.

This of course means that atheisists in the west have a morality based on Christianity. Which makes for amusing discussions as they seek to attack Christianity for being immoral while using Christianities moral bases for there attack.

Could you define the influences on your morality that are not Christian and are superior.

What morals do Christians in the west have that Buddhists or Hindus don't have? Lets talk about them?
 
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Neogaia777

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I don't think that humans get a top down morality imposed on them from an outside source. Instead, human morality comes from a bottom up approach. Just like every other physical and mental trait that humans possess, our conscience has evolved because it has helped our species survive. For most of our evolutionary history, we lived in small bands in very hostile environments where starvation, wild animals, enemy tribes and the elements threatened our existence at every turn. If we didn't care for our family members or form cooperative relationships with others based on reciprocity and fairness, our species would have gone extinct long ago. I would argue that our conscience forms the basis for all moral systems throughout the world and existed long before the first religions appeared. Humans created religion themselves and tried to codify what evolution had already given us (e.g. the Golden Rule) into their religions together with other "morals" such as "don't work on the Sabbath" or "don't worship other gods except me" etc. Moral systems were also influenced by culture and tradition.

Most people don't get their morals from the Bible, and to the extent that they do, they just pick and choose the nice bits (such as love your neighbor) and ignore the nasty bits (such as those that condone evils like slavery, genocide, rape, etc).
You do realize that without Jesus Christ, you would not be having or coming to any of these supposedly new moral revelations that you have, America never would have been without him, and many, many other things would be very very different and much darker, we would probably would have destroyed ourselves by now, and not even be here, now, without him and all that he did...

Or do you find it strange that the same moral principles that the NT NC teaches is the ones you have come to now, or that society as a whole is coming to now...?

Jesus Christ affected the social evolution in such way, (by revolution) that got us much farther, much faster, than we ever would have come to on our own... That directed or changed our course from one that would ultimately fail, to one that ultimately succeed, in the end...

But, they are about to let the world get dark again, and the cause will be sexual immorality that will destroy the fabric of society as a whole, and cause it to all come crashing down, why do you think the Bible has very, very many and much warnings about it and against it...?

Ugly deep sexual perversion and very perverse sexual acts will be rampant and common place, and people will do it openly and in public and not consider it abnormal or gross or perverse and will be completely unashamed...

But at the start, Gay rights opens the door to alll kinds of sexual sin getting into society and becoming a problem, not that it is gay peoples fault or anything, if anything, it may be some heterosexuals in a gay rights age that may be to blame, but, either way or anyway, the sexual sin getting worse leads to the fall and collapse of society ultimately, we will seem to be having other problems but this is the main cause...

Why the Bible has so much to say about it if you ask me...

God Bless!
 
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Tolworth John

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All human societies throughout the world and throughout history have had certain common morals. These were given to us by evolution.

That is an unproven assumption. Evolution has not been demonstrated to give anything, all that can be shown is that evolution via natural selection deletes functions.
 
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Brother Billy

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You do realize that without Jesus Christ, you would not be having or coming to any of these supposedly new moral revelations that you have, America never would have been without him, and many, many other things would be very very different and much darker, we would probably would have destroyed ourselves by now, and not even be here, now, without him and all that he did...

Or do you find it strange that the same moral principles that the NT NC teaches is the ones you have come to now, or that society as a whole is coming to now...?

Jesus Christ affected the social evolution in such way, (by revolution) that got us much farther, much faster, than we ever would have come to on our own... That directed or changed our course from one that would ultimately fail, to one that ultimately succeed, in the end...

But, they are about to let the world get dark again, and the cause will be sexual immorality that will destroy the fabric of society as a whole, and cause it to all come crashing down, why do you think the Bible has very, very many and much warnings about it and against it...?

Ugly deep sexual perversion and very perverse sexual acts will be rampant and common place, and people will do it openly and in public and not consider it abnormal or gross or perverse and will be completely unashamed...

But at the start, Gay rights opens the door to alll kinds of sexual sin getting into society and becoming a problem, not that it is gay peoples fault or anything, if anything, it may be some heterosexuals in a gay rights age that may be to blame, but, either way or anyway, the sexual sin getting worse leads to the fall and collapse of society ultimately, we will seem to be having other problems but this is the main cause...

Why the Bible has so much to say about it if you ask me...

God Bless!

What do you think people were like in prehistoric times? Before Genesis was even written down? Before writing was invented and before any civilization?

Do you think the following was normal behavior (rather than the exception) back then:
  • A mother not caring for her children?
  • A man not defending his brother from being harmed by others?
  • A father having sex with his daughter?
  • Men who interacted frequently cheated eachother when they traded goods?
  • Neighbors didn't help eachother when one of them was in trouble?
Such behavior has never been the norm in any society at any time in human history!
 
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Brother Billy

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That is an unproven assumption.

Evolution is accepted as a fact by virtually all scientists throughout the world.

Evolution has not been demonstrated to give anything, all that can be shown is that evolution via natural selection deletes functions.

Do you know the extraordinary variety of animals and plants that humans have been able to create through artificial selection? For example consider the wide variety of vegetables that we've created from Brassica oleracea - Wikipedia or the wide variety of dog breeds that we've created from wolves. Natural selection works in the same way, except that instead of a human breeder which selects who mates with who, the environment does that.

 
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Ken-1122

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I don't think that humans get a top down morality imposed on them from an outside source. Instead, human morality comes from a bottom up approach. Just like every other physical and mental trait that humans possess, our conscience has evolved because it has helped our species survive. For most of our evolutionary history, we lived in small bands in very hostile environments where starvation, wild animals, enemy tribes and the elements threatened our existence at every turn. If we didn't care for our family members or form cooperative relationships with others based on reciprocity and fairness, or had regular sex with family members, our species would have gone extinct long ago.

I would argue that humans had a conscience long before the first religions appeared and this forms the basis for all moral systems throughout the world and throughout history. Moral systems were/are further influenced by culture and tradition such that certain behaviors which might be considered deeply immoral in one culture, might be perfectly acceptable in others (e.g footbinding in ancient China, gladiatorial combat in ancient Rome, polygamy etc)

Humans created religion themselves and tried to codify what evolution had already given us (e.g. the Golden Rule) into their religions together with other "morals" such as "don't work on the Sabbath" or "don't worship other gods except me" etc.

Most people don't actually get their morals from the Bible, and to the extent that they do, they just pick and choose the nice bits (such as love your neighbor) and ignore the nasty bits (such as those that condone evils like slavery, genocide, rape, etc).

I think morality comes from within, and is influenced by society around us. As an intelligent human being, I believe I know the difference between right and wrong, and this knowledge is what we call morality.
 
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Ken-1122

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You have never worked with small children. They have an inbuilt sense of what is or is not fair.

This is built on by family life, and by society.

This of course means that atheisists in the west have a morality based on Christianity. Which makes for amusing discussions as they seek to attack Christianity for being immoral while using Christianities moral bases for there attack.

Could you define the influences on your morality that are not Christian and are superior.

I think most atheists morals in western society are influenced by Christian people. I don't think it would be accurate to say they have a morality based on Christianity, because the morals of Christianity is in a constant state of change. Christian morals of today are far different than Christian morals of yesterday, and will be far different than the Christian morals of tomorrow.
 
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Brother Billy

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I think most atheists morals in western society are influenced by Christian people. I don't think it would be accurate to say they have a morality based on Christianity, because the morals of Christianity is in a constant state of change. Christian morals of today are far different than Christian morals of yesterday, and will be far different than the Christian morals of tomorrow.

What morals haven't changed over time?
What morals do Christians have that non-Christians don't have?
 
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What I believe is God created life in this world, including natural law (e.g. evolution). Just as morality came before religion, God was before man. It's possible we were given a base of morality in our creation, which could be further built on through adaptation and eventually religion by Him. The codification of morals into a set of ethics recognizes the morality we're to have and to keep it in mind. Else an unnatural or hostile environment could pervert our morals selfishly and excessively, ultimately leading to our own and society's downfall.
 
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Brother Billy

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What I believe is God created life in this world, including natural law (e.g. evolution). Just as morality came before religion, God was before man. It's possible we were given a base of morality in our creation, which could be further built on through adaptation and eventually religion by Him. The codification of morals into a set of ethics recognizes the morality we're to have and to keep it in mind. Else an unnatural or hostile environment could pervert our morals selfishly and excessively, ultimately leading to our own and society's downfall.

Do you believe that humans have always been able to tell right from wrong and have they always been capable of doing evil? What about Adam and Even, the Fall and it's consequences? How do you reconcile all these with evolution?

See my other thread here:

How do you reconcile Evolution and Genesis?
 
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Tolworth John

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I think most atheists morals in western society are influenced by Christian people. I don't think it would be accurate to say they have a morality based on Christianity, because the morals of Christianity is in a constant state of change. Christian morals of today are far different than Christian morals of yesterday, and will be far different than the Christian morals of tomorrow.

If you said that Christians today don't follow as strictly the morality tasught in the bible I'd agree with you.
Just because Christians are careless about morality doesn't mean morality is or has changed.
 
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What do you think people were like in prehistoric
  • Neighbors didn't help eachother when one of them was in trouble?

Here's the main problem in my opinion. I don't know how anyone can argue that humans have co-operated with neighbours throughout history when there is overwhelming evidence of the exact opposite. Neighbours have been at war and killing each other throughout history, in fact, many groups of people have been very successful in doing so and spreading their seed through the massacre of men and rape of women of conquered neighbours.

In evolutionary terms, spreading your seed through pillage and rape is very successful. Where does the idea that this is wrong come from? Christianity.

I think people underestimate how revolutionary Jesus ideas were for his time. The idea that you should love your enemies, as opposed to fight and dominate them, was foreign. In fact, the reason the Jews denied he was the messiah was because he was not a warlord that raised an army to conquer Israel's enemies.
 
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Ken-1122

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What morals haven't changed over time?
When you look at moral issues like homosexuality, spanking your child, interracial relationships or even women preachers; Christian views on these moral issues has changed a lot over the past 50 years; and that’s just the past 50 years; consider how much has changed over the past 500 years, or how much will change over the next 500 years!
What morals do Christians have that non-Christians don't have?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that because Christian people dominate western society, their values will influence the non-Christians in that society.
 
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...This of course means that atheisists in the west have a morality based on Christianity. Which makes for amusing discussions as they seek to attack Christianity for being immoral while using Christianities moral bases for there attack....
Almost all of these "Christian moral bases" are shared by every other non Christian culture in the entire world. And they pre-date Christianity as well.

This is because, for the most part, morals are derived from our experiences of the objective factors that make life as a human being satisfying.
 
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Ken-1122

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If you said that Christians today don't follow as strictly the morality tasught in the bible I'd agree with you.
Just because Christians are careless about morality doesn't mean morality is or has changed.
I come from the position that people decide what is moral. So when people change what they deem moral or immoral, that is an example of morality changing.
 
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Tolworth John

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Almost all of these "Christian moral bases" are shared by every other non Christian culture in the entire world. And they pre-date Christianity as well.

Whether they are shared by other faiths is irrelevent. They have been taught to western society by Christianity, not by other societies.
 
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Tolworth John

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I come from the position that people decide what is moral. So when people change what they deem moral or immoral, that is an example of morality changing.

Try arguing that regarding laws with a court and see how far you get.

It is the same with morality.
 
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Brother Billy

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Here's the main problem in my opinion. I don't know how anyone can argue that humans have co-operated with neighbours throughout history when there is overwhelming evidence of the exact opposite. Neighbours have been at war and killing each other throughout history, in fact, many groups of people have been very successful in doing so and spreading their seed through the massacre of men and rape of women of conquered neighbours.

I never argued that humans have always co-operated with their neighbors. My question was "Do you think that it was normal behavior back then that neighbors didn't help eachother...". Thats a very different question.

Unfortunately humans are capable of great evil and we've seen extreme examples of that throughout history. And with technology that destructive power has only increased.

In evolutionary terms, spreading your seed through pillage and rape is very successful. Where does the idea that this is wrong come from? Christianity.

Have you not read Numbers 31 where God commands the Israelites to take vengeance upon the Midianites? Here God told the Israelites that they must slaughter all men, women and children, except for the young virgin girls who they could keep alive for themselves. The Israelites took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. Sounds like pillage and rape to me?

Here is an interesting article which I found which discusses your comment:
Evolution and war: The ‘deep roots’ theory of human violence | Genetic Literacy Project

I think people underestimate how revolutionary Jesus ideas were for his time. The idea that you should love your enemies, as opposed to fight and dominate them, was foreign. In fact, the reason the Jews denied he was the messiah was because he was not a warlord that raised an army to conquer Israel's enemies.

Firstly, do you believe that Jesus and God are the same? If so, why did he command such violence against innocent children? I can understand that maybe their parents might have done something to deserve to be slaughtered, but surely children were innocent of any crime? There are many examples throughout the Old Testament where God killed entire groups of people which included children (e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah). What caused God to change from a ruthless and cruel God to someone telling humans to love their neighbors?

Secondly, I agree that Jesus's ideas of non-violence was revolutionary for their times. However I don't think that is a reason to believe that he was of divine origin. There have been many other great teachers and wise men throughout history e.g. Buddha
 
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