We are not saved by works?

[Dave L]

If that were so, we wouldn't have so much of the sins and sorrows that infest the world today. The new nature, what St. Paul called "the new man in Christ" has to be disciplined. The new man in Christ is an infant and has to be trained in doing good.

The world is filled with people who have been born-again and who are living for the devil. It does not come naturally.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[Dave L]

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..

 

[Emli]

You believed (were saved) before you prayed, or you wouldn't have prayed.

No, I didn't believe. I didn't know God, had barely ever opened the Bible, and I was definitely not saved or born-again. I looked up "How to pray" on WikiHow and went from there.

 

[Dave L]

No, I didn't believe. I didn't know God, had barely ever opened the Bible, and I was definitely not saved or born-again. I looked up "How to pray" on WikiHow and went from there.

How do you walk if you don't believe there's a floor in front of you? How do you pray if you don't believe God is there to answer? God saved you, and your faith proves it. Or you would not have prayed.

 

[ExTiff]

I don't sense from reading what the Apostles wrote that they believed they were "in the ages to come" right now, when they wrote that. But, if what you say is true that should have included them.

Paul was still writing "for now we see through a glass, darkly/dimly; but then, face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:12) I wish we were in that time now!

Context, context, context. Always see the context.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Us means The Apostles and everybody who were at that time and henceforth, 'quickened, together with Christ', and that quickening happened 'Even when we, [they and us] were, [are] dead in sins'.

The quickening is retrospective looking back to the cross, not an expectation yet to be fulfilled in heaven. Why ever do you think The Gospel is such Good News if you have to wait and "wish we were in that time now!"?

Quickened is most definitely in the past tense.

"Created in Christ Jesus." Not by anything that we have said, thought or done. Only God is capable of creating. We are unable to create, even ourselves.

O come, let us worship and bow down:
let us kneel before the Lord our maker.
For he is our God;
and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
To day if ye will hear his voice,
Harden not your heart, as in the provocation,
and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Know ye that the Lord he is God:
it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;
we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving,
and into his courts with praise:
be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting;
and his truth endureth to all generations.

So Context, context, context, if you want to read truth in scripture.
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[Emli]

As far as I can see from what you wrote, we agree on a lot at this point in our walks with Him.

Yep, I think so too.

I would really only differ on a few things:
(1) It sounds like you believe that only the chosen are called; I believe God calls everyone and those Scripture calls chosen are the ones who God foreknew would answer the call (like looking at two sides of the same coin). I would cite "Many are called, few are chosen" and the two verses that the universalists won't let me forget--that God desires "all" (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9). To claim such a desire, but to only make it possible for some, would be deception. And, God is not a man that He should lie. He doesn't have to. He's God! (As an aside: That was kind of my point in my earlier Sovereignty discussions. He doesn't even owe us an explanation. Honestly, we have no right, as created beings, to demand one. Who are we to think we have a right to hold God accountable? Sorry, but that's a hot topic for me, because some think they do. I just can't imagine that level of ignorance!) Back to the subject at hand.

I agree with you that God calls more than those who are chosen. I don't believe that He calls everyone, because the Gospel hasn't reached everyone yet, but I believe that He will judge them based on their conscience and their actions. But I could be wrong.

He exposes/reveals Himself to everyone, allowing each and every one of us to accept or reject Him. So, I guess if I were to define it, I believe in "double prevenient grace," the first is the sacrifice which paved the way for all to be saved. The second is the one where God exposes Himself to each person individually in a way that gives us a legitimate chance to genuinely choose Him. I believe God already knows in advance who is going to accept Him and reject Him; but nobody will be able to say they didn't have a chance to choose Him.

I definitely agree with you here too. In fact, when I have been met with the question from unbelievers "if only God can open my eyes so I can believe Him, and I'm condemned if He doesn't, what if I stand before God one day without knowing Him, will He just cast me into Hell because He never opened my eyes?" (Some ask out of fear, some to mock, some to find a "loophole") God has put the words in my mouth to tell them that He would surely have called them, and His "defense" would be to show them all the times in their lives where He was calling them, one example being the conversation that I was having with them and was presenting the Gospel to them and another example being every time they had a Bible in their hands with the option to read it.

So, I don't believe the saving faith is something that is given before our choice to believe, but after. Just like, I don't believe the Holy Spirit is given before we believe, but after (even if it is almost instantaneous). But, I don't believe that means we can say we earned our salvation either. Without His double prevenient grace, we could have never chosen Him; so, none of us can EVER say we earned salvation.

Contrary to what some want to believe (I don't believe you are in that group I am about to mention): making a choice to accept the most amazing Gift IS NOT THE SAME as doing a work to earn that Gift; even though genuinely making that choice will result in works. On a much lower scale, if someone gives me a house or a car or a million dollars, my acceptance of any of those gifts in no way means that I earned any of those gifts which I would certainly appreciate, by the way, since they would make life here on earth much easier).

I agree with you, and I don't know how anyone could hear the argument that you and I present and say that we are arguing that salvation is somehow earned. Jesus paid the price for the gift and He then gave us the gift for free. In no way does our choice to accept that gift pay for the gift, nor does our usage of that gift (works that He has went before us to do after we are saved) pay for the gift. But if we reject the gift, God won't force it on us, though He will keep the gift in our reach and remind us of it even if we let go of it for a while, because He won't let go of us.

(2) With regard to false churches, God looks at the heart. I don't believe any who willfully choose to remain in what He considers critical false doctrines are saved (especially including the brainwashed and controlled, based on Jesus talking about "the blind following the blind into a ditch" and "making proselytes twice as much a child of hell as themselves" (Matt 23:15) and Rev 2 & 3. But, I believe there are many who are in those churches, but don't subscribe to all the stuff those churches teach/do (the overcomers in Rev 2 & 3).

Yes, I agree with you on this as well. It all depends on whether a person is truly following Jesus or not.

 

[Emli]

How do you walk if you don't believe there's a floor in front of you? How do you pray if you don't believe God is there to answer? God saved you, and your faith proves it. Or you would not have prayed.

When I first prayed I believed that He existed (kind of) because He had revealed Himself to me. But I had not yet received the Holy Spirit, I only received the Holy Spirit after I told Jesus I would follow Him. He didn't force me to receive the Holy Spirit, He gently opened my eyes first to the Gospel and then I chose to make Him my Lord and Savior, and THEN I received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was working in my heart before this, but I had not been born-again. Trust me, I remember when it happened.

 

[Dave L]

When I first prayed I believed that He existed (kind of) because He had revealed Himself to me. But I had not yet received the Holy Spirit, I only received the Holy Spirit after I told Jesus I would follow Him. He didn't force me to receive the Holy Spirit, He gently opened my eyes first to the Gospel and then I chose to make Him my Lord and Savior, and THEN I received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was working in my heart before this, but I had not been born-again. Trust me, I remember when it happened.

You had the Holy Spirit since faith is a fruit thereof.

 

[Emli]

You had the Holy Spirit since faith is a fruit thereof.

That verse does NOT say that all faith comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the rest of Scripture proves that it doesn't. All faith comes from God, but we don't have to be born-again yet for Him to begin to open our eyes. No offense meant at all, but I feel like your mind is stuck on this one very odd argument, and I pray that God will open your eyes to see why it is contrary to sound doctrine.

 

[Dave L]

That verse does NOT say that all faith comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the rest of Scripture proves that it doesn't. All faith comes from God, but we don't have to be born-again yet for Him to begin to open our eyes. No offense meant at all, but I feel like your mind is stuck on this one very odd argument, and I pray that God will open your eyes to see why it is contrary to sound doctrine.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[ExTiff]

When there are what appear to be inconsistencies between Jesus and Paul, I go with Jesus. (I say "apparent" because we all see through a glass darkly.) Jesus told us to keep his commandments, he told us to care for one another, he told us to give to the poor, welcome the stranger, etc. I take Jesus at his word. That that I think I can save myself through works -- salvation comes through Jesus. But he was clear as to what he requires of those who follow him.

I think you must be confusing 'being saved' with 'becoming a disciple of Christ'. The 'saved' are 'saved' by Christ. Disciples are 'sanctified' by Christ. The two are not identical and one precedes the other. The first is a judicial decree of God, the second is an ongoing process overseen by The Holy Spirit. Being 'saved' is something that God does for us. Being a disciple of Christ is something we do for Christ. You cannot ignore one part of scripture to 'go with' another part of scripture simply because you do not understand either of them properly. If you properly understood, you would see the truth of both. All of scripture is inspired by God.
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[ac28]

The OP used quotes from Matthew and James to indicate works may be needed. James was written ONLY to Israel, James 1:1 , and Christ's earthly ministry was ONLY to Israel, Matthew 15:24 . Israel always will have to keep the works of the law. We are Gentiles, who are saved by the gift of God's grace through faith without works, Ephesians 2:8-9 . However, good works acceptable to God will bring rewards.

This supposed dilemma is solved simply by applying right division. Only by rightly dividing (correctly cutting) God's Word of Truth, 2 Timothy 2:15, can you eliminate all of those things given to Israel (except Christ, of course), or required by Israel, but never, ever given to or required by us Gentiles (even though, all your life, you have been taught otherwise), and focus on the only things ever given to Gentiles, as found ONLY in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts. The other 59 books are all-Israel and you will find nothing in them written directly TO or ABOUT the Gentiles today. Everything in Acts, including Paul's 7 Acts epistles, was 100% Israel, since all saved Gentiles were grafted into Israel.

By the way, being born again is being resurrected. Therefore, the only person ever born again was Jesus Christ, the first begotten of the dead, Revelation 1:5 (KJV). Every saint that has ever died is asleep in the grave, waiting to be resurrected, i.e., born again. The ONLY person that has ever ascended to Heaven was Jesus Christ, John 3:13.

By the way #2, the word "disciple(s)" doesn't appear anywhere in Paul's 14 epistles. We are all Gentiles and the ONLY apostle we have is Paul. Paul's word is, therefore, always the LAST word, to us. Actually, every word Paul wrote was God-breathed, through the many special revelations he, alone, received from Jesus Christ. Also, a disciple is defined in Strong's as a pupil, a learner. Only in Paul's post-Acts epistles will we Gentiles of today find anything about us or about our future. Therefore, if we desire to become disciples, we should be pupils of Paul and his last 7 books, unless we want to learn other things that have absolutely nothing, directly, to do with us.

 

[ExTiff]

@Jason0047

You said:
Once becoming a Disciple of Christ we may be severely disciplined if we seriously sin. Lk.12:46.
You obviously are not reading this verse correctly.

"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:46).

In other words, the servant who is not looking for their Lord will come in a day when He is not aware and the Lord will cut him off and appoint his portion with the unbelievers. Granted, I believe this is talking about those who miss out on the Rapture; And yes, they will have an opportunity to repent, but the Rapture does not happen in the course of the life of every believer.

The salient truth about this passage is that the warning is addressed by Christ to His Servant who has behaved wickedly to his fellow Servants. Basically here we are talking about 'Disciples of Christ', not 'Unbelievers'. That is why the sanction imposed can be to have the Servant, 'Put with the unbelievers'. You seem to be under the impression that the Servant is already among the unbelieving. That is not at all what the text implies. The 'Looketh not for him' simply is referring to the unworthy disciple that expects his Lord to return but is also convinced it will not be soon.

"But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful."

Nothing whatever to do with 19th c. novel North American Dispensationist nonsense. Everything to do with those claiming to be Disciples of Christ, in any age, who 'beat up fellow disciples' by abusing and accusing them. Notice particularly the abuse of 'female servants', presumably by male disciples, perhaps arrogantly opposing or restricting their Christ ordained ministry, and seeking to silence them in the church.

 

[ExTiff]

@Jason0047
[ExTiff wrote:]

You said:
So works of the law do not secure our salvation. Respect for the Law of Christ however secures his approval, and works unfitting a Disciple of Christ can rob us of our inheritance of eternal life and incur punishments either light or severe, as the case may be. Lk.12:47-48.

What is the purpose of chastening? Why does a master correct his dog for pooping on the carpet? It is to correct the animal's wrong behavior in order to get the animal to stop leaving hot steaming land mines in his living room to step upon? But what if the dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem because it was sick? Could the master still lightly smack the dog and yell it for pooping brownie goodness upon his beautiful white carpet? No. Correcting the animal would then be non-sensical. Correction is to get the animal to stop. But many who are in the Belief Alone camp would have me believe that a Christian always commit grievous sin while under God's grace their whole lives. Correction does not make any sense in this kind of belief because there is no point where they are ever corrected and stop in committing grievous sin.

But this is not what the Scriptures teach; The Bible says we can overcome grievous sin (See 1 Corinthians 10:13, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

You seem to confusing 'sin' for which we will receive discipline, with 'sin' which is so offensive to Christ that it will result in the 'Servant', 'being put with the unbelievers'.

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

And:

"And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, in hypocrisy speaking lies, being seared in their own conscience, forbidding to marry--to abstain from meats that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those believing and acknowledging the truth, because every creature of God [is] good, and nothing [is] to be rejected, with thanksgiving being received, for it is sanctified through the word of God and intercession. These things placing before the brethren, thou shalt be a good ministrant of Jesus Christ, being nourished by the words of the faith, and of the good teaching, which thou didst follow after, . . ."

The scriptures teach that it is not only possible to 'fall away from the faith', but that there will be those that definitely will do so. The Holy Spirit has expressly said so. And the latter times are not ahead of us, the latter times refer to any time after the crucifixion.
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[ExTiff]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

You are being too pedantic. You may have faith that the bus will arrive on time to take you to work, but that faith has not come from God. It is based upon your knowledge of the bus time table and your expectation that the bus company adheres to its own timetables.

'Saving faith' is a very different matter. If 'saving faith' was actually what provided salvation, rather than God's Grace, then 'faith' would have been first on the list, not second from the last, (you missed out self-control). And anyway it is not 'faith' per se, but 'faithfulness'.

STRONG’S NUMBER: g4102
Dictionary Definition g4102. πίστις pistis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: — assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
AV (244) - faith 239, assurance 1, believe + g1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1;
conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith...
.

 

[Dave L]

You are being too pedantic. You may have faith that the bus will arrive on time to take you to work, but that faith has not come from God. It is based upon your knowledge of the bus time table and your expectation that the bus company adheres to its own timetables.

'Saving faith' is a very different matter. If 'saving faith' was actually what provided salvation, rather than God's Grace, then 'faith' would have been first on the list, not second from the last, (you missed out self-control). And anyway it is not 'faith' per se, but 'faithfulness'.

STRONG’S NUMBER: g4102
Dictionary Definition g4102. πίστις pistis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: — assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
AV (244) - faith 239, assurance 1, believe + g1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1;
conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith...
.

What you are missing in the passage is that the Spirit is salvation and faith follows.

 

[ExTiff]

What you are missing in the passage is that the Spirit is salvation and faith follows.

Faith is merely the means by which we actually apprehend salvation. God no longer holding our sins against us, because of what happened on the cross, cannot be any use to us if we don't take God at His Word. i.e Have faith in God's promise. God could promise away for ever, but if we don't believe Him, it will do us no good. It is by hearing and believing that we receive The Holy Spirit.

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
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[ExTiff]

Fact is there are Two conflicting Gospels, (perhaps even more but they and the conflicting one are all wrong).

(1) "God is no longer holding your sins against you, will you therefore be reconciled to God?"

(2) "God will eternally torture you in hell for your sins, unless you say sorry and believe in Jesus"

I go for #1. It seems to me to be more like an invitation from a God of love to a sinner God wants to raise up.

#2 on the other hand seems more to me like a threat from an angry God to a sinner God wants to humiliate.

Which do you think will elicit the most sincere resolve from the sinner, to express gratitude to a Gracious God by amending their ways in accordance with God's good advice in the scriptures? #1 Or #2 ?

I say #1 because I believe God is omnipotent and is willing to take enormous risks to save His creation to the uttermost degree, if it is divinely possible.
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[Dave L]

Faith is merely the means by which we actually apprehend salvation. God no longer holding our sins against us, because of what happened on the cross, cannot be any use to us if we don't take God at His Word. i.e Have faith in God's promise. God could promise away for ever, but if we don't believe Him, it will do us no good. It is by hearing and believing that we receive The Holy Spirit.

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
.

You cannot hear or believe unless you first have the Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit is not a fruit of faith.

 

[ExTiff]

You cannot hear or believe unless you first have the Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit is not a fruit of faith.

Yes it is!

Q. Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
A. By hearing with faith.

Only a corpse is completely bereft of The Spirit anyhow, and corpses cannot hear with faith. They can't hear at all. It is that by hearing with faith the Holy Spirit can become indwelling, as we progressively surrender our will to Jesus Christ's.
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