We are not saved by works?

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, thanks! Again, as always, I agree with the whole of the Scriptures.

I am curious about one thing: you consistently refer to the "grace of God" teaching us. Why do you not refer to the Holy Spirit and instead refer to the inanimate "grace of God" as if it is a separate entity in and of itself? Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ, but grace is not a person, it is an attribute of God. The Holy Spirit leads us into all Truth. We are to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh and when we do so, we will live righteously post-reception of the Holy Spirit. However, apart from the Blood and Testimony of Jesus Christ and the subsequent gift of the Holy Spirit, we could never ever earn our salvation.

Well, I believe Scripture teaches that all three persons of the Godhead or Trinity work in a believer to do what is good and pleasing in His sight. For the Father works in the believer (John 14:23) (1 John 1:3) (1 John 2:13) (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son works in the believer (John 15:5) (1 John 5:12) (Philippians 4:13) (Ephesians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit works in the believer (John 14:16) (Galatians 5:16) (1 John 3:24).

Seeing we are in the last days: I try not to mention the Holy Spirit too much because I have occasionally run into Christians who can sometimes say things that are not nice in regards to what I say. I wouldn't want them to accidentally speak bad words against the Holy Spirit like the Pharisees did with Jesus. Our salvation rests upon Jesus Christ and so I focus on Him in my talks with others when I use God's Word.

As for your claim that grace is not a person:

First, the Bible has homonyms in it. As you may know, homonyms are words that look and sound the same but they have different meanings.

For example:

The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.​

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English bibles and in the original languages. So the word "grace" can have multiple meanings in the Bible. The context determines it's use.

Second, while grace is an attribute of the Lord Jesus Christ because Scripture says He is full of grace and truth (John 1:14), this attribute is not something that is separate from who He is as a person. God is spirit (John 4:24). But the spirit is not distinct from who is as a person anymore than grace is distinct from who is as a person. Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by God's grace through faith, it is the gift of God. This gift is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he GAVE His only begotten Son (John 3:16). Jesus said "I am the bread of life." (John 6:35). Jesus is speaking in spiritual terms. He is not saying he is actual physical bread. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the LIFE." (John 14:6). In other words, Jesus is saying He is spiritual life (i.e. eternal life). 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So a person needs have to have the Son in order to have life and they cannot be saved without God's grace because true believers are saved by God's grace (like a gift) through faith. So Jesus is the source of salvation itself. Jesus is the source of grace itself. Grace is embodied in a person. God's grace is Jesus Christ.

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." (Acts of the Apostles 15:11).

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Romans 3:24).

This grace is in Jesus for it is a part of who He is.

Paul was able to labour more than the brethren not because of his own working but because of the "grace of God" that was with him.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Corinthians 15:10).​

This "grace of God" is Jesus Christ. Jesus was the One who had helped Paul to labor more abundantly than His brethren. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

I also agree with you on what you said about claims, once born again, that you are a sinner and can't help yourself. God gave us the Holy Spirit for multiple reasons.

I agree with what you stated here.

At the same time, John also shared other things which included praying for someone who was committing a forgiveable sin.

I agree that Christians can stumble on occasion, but I also believe they can overcome grievous sin in this life (See 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:24, Philippians 2:15). Note: Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead unto death (like unrepentant grievous sins like: Murder, adultery, theft, coveting, etc.); And there are sins that do not lead unto death (i.e. confessed sins or faults or minor transgressions) (See 1 John 5:16-17). For obviously going 5mph over the speed limit is not going to condemn a Christian to hell. But committing adultery will condemn a Christian to hell unless they repent (i.e. seek the Lord's forgiveness) which is then followed by the fruits of repentance (i.e. forsaking sin and doing good deeds by the power of the Lord working in them). A clear example of a sin not unto death in the Bible is baptism. For water baptism is not a command that if disobeyed leads to spiritual death (See 1 Peter 3:21 and compare the words "filth of the flesh" with similar wording in 2 Corinthians 7:1).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for continuing to give me things to think about. I am not afraid to think anything. Too many churchfolk think they are going somewhere they are not and I know that. I'm not intimidated by them; I fear and love God, because He first loved me.

You are most welcome, brother.
May you please be well in the Lord this fine day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Prevenient grace is not grace. Grace changes the dead human spirit into a living spirit baptized in the Holy Spirit. Not conditioned on human response. You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.

So you believe in unconditional election whereby God chooses some to be saved and He chooses others not to be saved? Meaning, God chooses people based upon no conditions whatsoever within the individual? God just decides to just pick a few to be saved because He feels like it?

If you believe God just randomly chooses some to be saved and others not to be saved: Then how would you feel if a coast guard came and he saved everyone who was lost at sea in the water except you and your family because he simply chose not to save you guys randomly? I imagine you would think it would be unfair of him to do that, right?

In other words, if God forces salvation upon people, then why doesn't He do that for all people? What purpose would there be for a Judgment even? Why would God condemn people if He was the One who put them there? He could have prevented them in going to a Judgment if salvation ultimately rested in his hands. To put it to you another way, it would sort of be like this: One day a robot inventor created a robot whereby it gets a virus and or it goes haywire by an accident whereby it now wants to only murder as a part of it's programming. The inventor could have corrected this problem easily (from a remote destination), but he simply chooses not to fix the robot. Then one day, when the robot kills a person the inventor puts that robot on trial for killing. That would not make any sense for the inventor to do that because the robot is only doing what it is programmed to do (and the inventor could have stopped it). But if the robot was given free will choice as a part of it's programming and it could have equally chosen to do good instead of murdering, then that would be a different story.

 

[ExTiff]

Do you need to choose to believe the chair you are sitting in is real? People who choose to believe do not believe, or they wouldn't need to fix their mind on something not experientially real to them.

No! And I have not said you need to believe that God is no longer holding your sins against you for that fact to be true, either. I was simply correcting / modifying your assertion that "You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe." Because that would make it all transactional. as if something about salvation depends upon you and what you do, but it is ALL of God, not of us. Your second sentence I absolutely agree with. Believing in something God is already not doing (i.e. holding your sins against you), is simply accepting 'The Truth', and The Truth is Jesus Christ.

Everybody is obviously not saved, but most probably are or will be. There are many that have not yet accepted The Truth that God no longer holds their sins against them. That's OK. Perhaps they have never heard the Gospel like that before. But what about the ones who have heard that Truth but refuse to be reconciled to it? What of them?

A Cruise company can provide life boats for all its passengers in case of emergency, but if a passenger refuses to obey instructions and refuses to get into the lifeboat when the actual emergency arises, they can't blame the cruise company if they drown. There are rules to be obeyed, even in the lifeboat. Those who disobey them may find themselves later prosecuted for endangering the lives of the other passengers.

I fear and love God, because He first loved me.

And the primary point there is that God's initiative, to no longer hold our sins against us, came at Calvary in Christ Jesus and its effectiveness is none of our making.
.
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[thecolorsblend]

Simply put, if God did not first give you a new heart, you would love your sin more than him, and never come yo Christ. But, people love false images of Christ and follow that idol for all they're worth.

Your “yes” is understood. Good day, sir.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, if salvation depends on you, you are the savior, not Christ.

I have never heard of any person who boasted in saving themselves when a coast guard came to save them by the fact they cooperated with the coast guard in order to be saved. Most people give credit to the coast guard for saving them even if they had to reach for a rescue device and hold on to it (so as to be pulled up out of the water).

 

[Senkaku]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

We are not saved by our works but our works are the evidence of faith, which is why James goes on to say "show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works". Its no different in any other topic in life. You say you like baseball, but you don't watch it. You say you like ice cream, but you don't eat any. You say you believe in God, but you have no fruits, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are not saved by our works but our works are the evidence of faith, which is why James goes on to say "show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works". Its no different in any other topic in life. You say you like baseball, but you don't watch it. You say you like ice cream, but you don't eat any. You say you believe in God, but you have no fruits, etc.

This is precisely why works (after being saved by God's grace) play a part in the salvation process. For we cannot be saved without works showing forth a true faith. So to say works does not play a part in the salvation equation is a contradiction.

 

[Dave L]

I have never heard of any person who boasted in saving themselves when a coast guard came to save them by the fact they cooperated with the coast guard in order to be saved. Most people give credit to the coast guard for saving them even if they had to reach for a rescue device and hold on to it (so as to be pulled up out of the water).

No body claims to save themselves. Scripture will not allow for it. But the truth remains, most think the gospel is law and God saves only the obedient. But this is salvation by works and not salvation by grace.

 

[Dave L]

Your “yes” is understood. Good day, sir.

What happens if you stop meeting the conditions of salvation? What if salvation has no conditions but is a free gift from God?

 

[Dave L]

No! And I have not said you need to believe that God is no longer holding your sins against you for that fact to be true, either. I was simply correcting / modifying your assertion that "You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe." Because that would make it all transactional. as if something about salvation depends upon you and what you do, but it is ALL of God, not of us. Your second sentence I absolutely agree with. Believing in something God is already not doing (i.e. holding your sins against you), is simply accepting 'The Truth', and The Truth is Jesus Christ.

Everybody is obviously not saved, but most probably are or will be. There are many that have not yet accepted The Truth that God no longer holds their sins against them. That's OK. Perhaps they have never heard the Gospel like that before. But what about the ones who have heard that Truth but refuse to be reconciled to it? What of them?

A Cruise company can provide life boats for all its passengers in case of emergency, but if a passenger refuses to obey instructions and refuses to get into the lifeboat when the actual emergency arises, they can't blame the cruise company if they drown. There are rules to be obeyed, even in the lifeboat. Those who disobey them may find themselves later prosecuted for endangering the lives of the other passengers.



And the primary point there is that God's initiative, to no longer hold our sins against us, came at Calvary in Christ Jesus and its effectiveness is none of our making.
.
.

God holds sin against everyone, that is why everyone dies. The wages of sin is death.

 

[Dave L]

So you believe in unconditional election whereby God chooses some to be saved and He chooses others not to be saved? Meaning, God chooses people based upon no conditions whatsoever within the individual? God just decides to just pick a few to be saved because He feels like it?

If you believe God just randomly chooses some to be saved and others not to be saved: Then how would you feel if a coast guard came and he saved everyone who was lost at sea in the water except you and your family because he simply chose not to save you guys randomly? I imagine you would think it would be unfair of him to do that, right?

In other words, if God forces salvation upon people, then why doesn't He do that for all people? What purpose would there be for a Judgment even? Why would God condemn people if He was the One who put them there? He could have prevented them in going to a Judgment if salvation ultimately rested in his hands. To put it to you another way, it would sort of be like this: One day a robot inventor created a robot whereby it gets a virus and or it goes haywire by an accident whereby it now wants to only murder as a part of it's programming. The inventor could have corrected this problem easily (from a remote destination), but he simply chooses not to fix the robot. Then one day, when the robot kills a person the inventor puts that robot on trial for killing. That would not make any sense for the inventor to do that because the robot is only doing what it is programmed to do (and the inventor could have stopped it). But if the robot was given free will choice as a part of it's programming and it could have equally chosen to do good instead of murdering, then that would be a different story.

You assume God doesn't save those who want to be saved. This is not true. He saves all who want to be saved and doesn't save any who do not. But love their sins more than they love him.

 

[ExTiff]

God holds sin against everyone, that is why everyone dies. The wages of sin is death.

Death of the body is not necessarily death of the spirit. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. Even Christ had to physically die, because he was also physically human. All humans have to physically die, Jesus, all the apostles and everyone else have all 'died'. Were none 'saved' then?

He saves all who want to be saved and doesn't save any who do not.

You are equating 'salvation' with "god no longer holding the worlds sins against them". You seem to disagree with Paul on the issue. You seem to think its 'our wanting it' that makes it effective, rather than Christ's redeeming work on the cross that enables the whole caboodle.

Jesus came to 'save the world'. Did he fail to do that?

 

[Emli]

Middle: Okay, I see you have four subsets (those who don't come, those eventually saved, those who eventually fall away, and those who at judgment are surprised). Is that a faithful representation of what you believe? I think some others we have conversed with who might say there are only two: chosen (and therefore saved) and unchosen (and therefore can't be saved).

I think those four categories are supported by Scripture. Of course if we do look at it from God's perspective, there are only two categories: those who will be resurrected (who were chosen) and those who won't (who weren't chosen). Ultimately, that's what will happen. There will be the Kingdom of Heaven, and there will be Hell. But I think that we can safely separate people into other categories too, depending on why they will be saved and why they won't. Jesus did. Look at the parable of the sower and why the seeds didn't grow. Look at the sheep and the goats. Look at the "Lord, Lord"-people. Look at the 5 virgins without oil. There are always different reasons in Jesus' parables to why people aren't saved, different scenarios, different wisdom to learn from. It just proves that salvation isn't simply "believe and go to Heaven". There are so many, many parts of our walk with Christ that all has to fit together.

Could it be that more serious false doctrines are what the "god of this world blinds" with (2 Cor 4:4)--whether it is worldly false doctrines or religious false doctrines? God goes so far to suggest that He turns some over to a strong delusion, because they didn't receive the love of the truth (2 Thes 2:10-12) or eventually a reprobate mind (2nd half of Romans 1). Maybe that is why we are told "Be not conformed to this world; but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (Romans 12:2) Jesus said "Sanctify them through Your Truth. Your Word is Truth." in His John 17 prayer (John 17:17). Jesus also talked about "Eating my flesh" as a requirement to be saved. And, that "My Words are spirit and they are life." (John 6, especially 54,63)

I agree with you. Also see Deuteronomy 8:3 and Matthew 4:3-4

But I also don't think that truth is something we only hear or believe, but something we do. James 1:21-22, John 14:21, Luke 11:28, Matthew 7:24.

But, I don't know anyone, apart from Jesus Christ, who was born again with a perfect knowledge of Truth across all subjects. Even Paul admitted that (1 Cor 13:12). I do know some who think they are the incarnate knowledge of God, but I am not convinced. In fact, I'm not convinced that anyone can get it completely right on this side of eternity AND that makes me question if "perfect doctrine" is required to be saved. Does that make sense?

Of course. We can't know everything, but that wasn't my point either. I do believe that there are a few things that we have to get absolutely right in order to have saving faith, such as believing in the Holy Trinity and surrendering to Jesus, giving up our old ways and following His commandments, but that we don't have to have an extraordinary amount of wisdom or understanding of theology etc.

Love is the greatest commandment anyway, which is also what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13. But I also firmly believe that our love means nothing unless it is founded on truth and that we love God first, and then love our neighbours and our enemies through Him. Because He is love and love is the fruit of the Spirit, without Him we can do nothing. And our love must lead people to Christ and give them true hope and not condemn them to Hell by giving them false comfort.

I do know some who think they are the incarnate knowledge of God, but I am not convinced.

I think that you can be convinced for sure that they are NOT the incarnate knowledge of God.

In fact, seeing some of the political moves that which calls itself the church has made, I'm not even sure if those whom some generations considered heretics really were in God's sight. I question if a decision or body claiming it is of God is really of Him, when human politics dirty it. I don't question whether God will save some from within those contaminated entities though. Isn't that what Jesus kind of says in Revelation 2 & 3?

I definitely believe that a lot of people from false churches will be saved, maybe even some in JW, depending on their personal faith and morals, not sure about any Mormons. Their leaders won't be saved, but maybe those who have been brainwashed and controlled by them will be?

Regarding your closing statement: It is always God's work that saves us; but it is our cooperation, by His ordination, that allows Him to do that. If God gives all faith, is it God who enables me to believe that when I work, I will get paid OR that the sun will rise tomorrow OR that when I get in a car it will work the way it is supposed to, OR that when I enter an intersection, I have faith that cross-traffic won't, that my car will go when I press on the gas or stop when I press the gas or change directions when I steer?

Now you are talking about general faith. I meant faith in God specifically, like the Bible defines faith, which none of us can have unless God gives it to us. We cannot know Him unless He reveals Himself to us.

The faith that you have in let's say that the sun will rise, is because you have seen the sun rise every morning and you have learnt to trust in it. In the same way, you wake up in the morning and you pray and then you spend time with God and He takes care of you and your life throughout the day. You haven't seen Him, but you have learnt to trust Him. Because He has revealed Himself to you, which was not done by you, but by Him. You sought Him, because you responded to His calling. If He hadn't called, you couldn't have heard Him, and you never would have come to Him. Then you read His Word, which He gave to you, and He opened your eyes and explained what it means in the Spirit. Then He taught you what to pray and He responded to those prayers. Etc. In that way, all faith in God comes from Him and not from yourself. It's a gift from God. You have responded to it, but it's like He gave you a present and you chose to open it and accept what was inside it.

 

[Dave L]

Death of the body is not necessarily death of the spirit. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. Even Christ had to physically die, because he was also physically human. All humans have to physically die, Jesus, all the apostles and everyone else have all 'died'. Were none 'saved' then?



You are equating 'salvation' with "god no longer holding the worlds sins against them". You seem to disagree with Paul on the issue. You seem to think its 'our wanting it' that makes it effective, rather than Christ's redeeming work on the cross that enables the whole caboodle.

Jesus came to 'save the world'. Did he fail to do that?

It still proves that God holds sin against everyone and doesn't dismiss it as you say.

 

[ExTiff]

It still proves that God holds sin against everyone and doesn't dismiss it as you say.

As St Paul says. See my signature.

Never said God dismisses sin. I said God is no longer holding their sins against them, (the world, that is).

You speak as if nothing of importance happened at the cross and there is something left for us to do, before God will stop 'holding our sins against us'.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No body claims to save themselves. Scripture will not allow for it.

God first draws us. Without this drawing, we cannot come to God. But it is God's desire that all should be saved. So God is knocking on the door of people's hearts. So at the moment God calls us, we have a choice to make. After God draws us or awakens us to His call, we have free will to choose Him. For the Bible teaches that we have Free will to choose God. Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

But the truth remains, most think the gospel is law and God saves only the obedient. But this is salvation by works and not salvation by grace.

Well, you make it sound like it is bad that works or obedience play a part in the salvation process after being saved by God's grace. Are you appealing to Morality? Yes? No doubt you believe it would be immoral for us to rob God of His glory in saving us vs. Us trying to save ourselves. Is this correct?

But if you truly are appealing to Morality entirely, you cannot say that we can be disobedient and sin while under God's grace with us being saved, either. For that is the only alternative position of saying that we are not saved by obedience (after being saved by God's grace). The only other position of not being saved by obedience (involving God's saving grace) is being saved by God's grace in disobedience or sin. Is that not even more wrong on a Moral level to say that we can trust in God's grace and yet also rebel against God by sinning with the thinking we are saved? Would not God have to agree with sin in order for Him to agree with a plan of salvation that says we can commit willful sin on some level with the thinking we are saved? Some will say that this sin is paid for at the cross. However, this does not work because God cannot agree with sin. Only man's wrong doing is paid for. God cannot agree with a sin and still be saved plan of salvation. If so, then He would have to agree with sin; And God cannot do that because He is holy, righteous, and good.

Also, no doubt you appeal to the regeneration as an excuse that a believer will not live an excessively sinful lifestyle. But this is just a tacked on excuse that basically is saying that works or holiness do need to be there in order for a person to be saved. Unless of course you believe that a saint can still be saved while doing horrible acts of evil (Which is saying that we are saved by God's grace with no obedience). For do you believe King David was saved during the time he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You assume God doesn't save those who want to be saved. This is not true. He saves all who want to be saved and doesn't save any who do not. But love their sins more than they love him.

So God regenerates believers (so they are able to then choose God) based upon knowing their future choice of what they would do after being regenerated? If this is the case, then why are there a bunch of free will statements about us choosing God in the Bible?

I believe in Prevenient Grace. This is the belief that God draws us or He awakens us to Him by Him calling us to repent and it is then up to us to decide if we accept Him or not. Without this drawing by God, we cannot repent. But I do not believe God withholds this drawing from people. The only case I would see an exception to the rule on this maybe is those who will worship the beast in the future; For their names were not even written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8). I believe the rest of those in the world have a choice and an opportunity to repent. For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Dave L]

So God regenerates believers (so they are able to then choose God) based upon knowing their future choice of what they would do after being regenerated? If this is the case, then why are there a bunch of free will statements about us choosing God in the Bible?

I believe in Prevenient Grace. This is the belief that God draws us or He awakens us to Him by Him calling us to repent and it is then up to us to decide if we accept Him or not. Without this drawing by God, we cannot repent. But I do not believe God withholds this drawing from people. The only case I would see an exception to the rule on this maybe is those who will worship the beast in the future; For their names were not even written in the Lamb's book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8). I believe the rest of those in the world have a choice and an opportunity to repent. For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If you consider people are born spiritually dead and cannot believe in the true Christ, but only in a false Christ or some other religious figure, then it makes sense that you must first be born again before you can discern and believe in the true Christ of the bible.

 

[Dave L]

God first draws us. Without this drawing, we cannot come to God. But it is God's desire that all should be saved. So God is knocking on the door of people's hearts. So at the moment God calls us, we have a choice to make. After God draws us or awakens us to His call, we have free will to choose Him. For the Bible teaches that we have Free will to choose God. Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.



Well, you make it sound like it is bad that works or obedience play a part in the salvation process after being saved by God's grace. Are you appealing to Morality? Yes? No doubt you believe it would be immoral for us to rob God of His glory in saving us vs. Us trying to save ourselves. Is this correct?

But if you truly are appealing to Morality entirely, you cannot say that we can be disobedient and sin while under God's grace with us being saved, either. For that is the only alternative position of saying that we are not saved by obedience (after being saved by God's grace). The only other position of not being saved by obedience (involving God's saving grace) is being saved by God's grace in disobedience or sin. Is that not even more wrong on a Moral level to say that we can trust in God's grace and yet also rebel against God by sinning with the thinking we are saved? Would not God have to agree with sin in order for Him to agree with a plan of salvation that says we can commit willful sin on some level with the thinking we are saved? Some will say that this sin is paid for at the cross. However, this does not work because God cannot agree with sin. Only man's wrong doing is paid for. God cannot agree with a sin and still be saved plan of salvation. If so, then He would have to agree with sin; And God cannot do that because He is holy, righteous, and good.

Also, no doubt you appeal to the regeneration as an excuse that a believer will not live an excessively sinful lifestyle. But this is just a tacked on excuse that basically is saying that works or holiness do need to be there in order for a person to be saved. Unless of course you believe that a saint can still be saved while doing horrible acts of evil (Which is saying that we are saved by God's grace with no obedience). For do you believe King David was saved during the time he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

The will is not free from birth. But only after the New Birth.