Sola Fide Question

[Not David]

Howdy! Even tho I know that Lutherans believe in Faith Alone and Catholics believe in Faith + Works, how come they sound similar when there is a discussion about those two? For example, Lutherans don't believe in Antinominalism so if they don't do works then they don't have faith. On the other hand, Catholics don't believe that by doing works only you can be saved but by having faith too. Can someone clarify my confusion?

 

[Athanasius377]

Howdy! Even tho I know that Lutherans believe in Faith Alone and Catholics believe in Faith + Works, how come they sound similar when there is a discussion about those two? For example, Lutherans don't believe in Antinominalism so if they don't do works then they don't have faith. On the other hand, Catholics don't believe that by doing works only you can be saved but by having faith too. Can someone clarify my confusion?

Here is a simple answer and I will follow up with a more complete answer. Lutherans believe that Justification (right standing, legally speaking) is apart from sanctification yet are linked. Think of the parable of the goats and the sheep. What do sheep do?
They do sheepy things, it's in their nature.
What do Goats do?
Goaty things.
Why, because it's what they do according to their natures. Does a sheep know it is acting like a sheep? No, because it such a part of what it means to be a sheep that a sheep wouldn't realise it is acting like a sheep. Mt 25:31–46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So where does faith and and works come into play. Simply put good works are done because it is now in your nature do them. You are created in Christ to do good works. . .
Eph 2:8–10)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Good works are something that a sheep does, because it is part of his nature.

A goat can never do the work of a sheep since that would be against his nature.

I will contrast the roman position when I have a few more moments.

 

[St_Worm2]

Here's something that may prove interesting from the CCC:

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. ~Catechism of the Catholic Church
​

Where to Lutherans stand on the idea of "meriting" (for yourselves and/or for others) the graces needed to obtain eternal life?

--David
p.s. - I know the RCC teaches that whenever a mortal/grave sin is committed, shipwreck is made of one's faith and salvation is lost, but they also teach that salvation can be regained through the sacrament of penance. What do Lutherans teach about the loss of/regaining of one's salvation? Thanks

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as “the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace.” (979; 1856; 1990) ~Catechism of the Catholic Church​

 

[Not David]

Here's something that may prove interesting from the CCC:

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. ~Catechism of the Catholic Church
​

Where to Lutherans stand on the idea of "meriting" (for yourselves and/or for others) the graces needed to obtain eternal life?

--David
p.s. - I know the RCC teaches that whenever a mortal/grave sin is committed, shipwreck is made of one's faith and salvation is lost, but they also teach that salvation can be regained through the sacrament of penance. What do Lutherans teach about the loss of/regaining of one's salvation? Thanks

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as “the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace.” (979; 1856; 1990) ~Catechism of the Catholic Church​

I'm sorry, I grew up in a household where I could lose salvation if I died before repenting from a sin to a Calvinist "always saved" idea of salvation. What's the difference with Lutheran's view of someone losing salvation?

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm sorry, I grew up in a household where I could lose salvation if I died before repenting from a sin to a Calvinist "always saved" idea of salvation. What's the difference with Lutheran's view of someone losing salvation?

Hi David, I will, of course, defer to all of our Lutheran brothers as far as your question is concerned. My question is actually about the next rung up on the ladder, so to speak (IOW, it's about the ability to regain what was lost, and whether or not Lutherans believe that such a thing is possible, like our Catholic friends do).

As you pointed out above, for a Calvinist, there is nothing to regain, not because we believe we are "always saved" (no matter what), rather, because we believe that those who truly belong to God, His saints, will, in the end, persevere in the faith (because the Lord will make sure that we do).

--David

 

[Tigger45]

I'm sorry, I grew up in a household where I could lose salvation if I died before repenting from a sin to a Calvinist "always saved" idea of salvation. What's the difference with Lutheran's view of someone losing salvation?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm sorry, I grew up in a household where I could lose salvation if I died before repenting from a sin to a Calvinist "always saved" idea of salvation. What's the difference with Lutheran's view of someone losing salvation?

Did you receive Salvation in Jesus while you were in the household you grew up in ?
Or later ?

 

[Athanasius377]

Where to Lutherans stand on the idea of "meriting" (for yourselves and/or for others) the graces needed to obtain eternal life?

Sorry for the delay, I nearly forgot about this thread. To answer your question I would point you to the Augsburg Confession Article V:


1 Our churches teach that people cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works. 2 People are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake. By His death, Christ made satisfaction for our sins. 3 God counts this faith for righteousness in His sight (Romans 3 and 4 [3:21–26; 4:5].

McCain, P. T. (Ed.). (2005). Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (p. 33). St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

Hi David, I will, of course, defer to all of our Lutheran brothers as far as your question is concerned. My question is actually about the next rung up on the ladder, so to speak (IOW, it's about the ability to regain what was lost, and whether or not Lutherans believe that such a thing is possible, like our Catholic friends do).

Again from the Augsburg Confession Article XII:

1 Our churches teach that there is forgiveness of sins for those who have fallen after Baptism whenever they are converted. 2 The Church ought to impart Absolution to those who return to repentance [Jeremiah 3:12]. 3 Now, strictly speaking, repentance consists of two parts. 4 One part is contrition, that is, terrors striking the conscience through the knowledge of sin. 5 The other part is faith, which is born of the Gospel [Romans 10:17] or the Absolution and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven. It comforts the conscience and delivers it from terror. 6 Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruit of repentance [Galatians 5:22–23].

McCain, P. T. (Ed.). (2005). Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (p. 38). St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

In short we believe that one can fall away from the faith and then restored. There is a more thorough statement regarding our doctrine of election in the Formula of Concord Article XI.

I hope this helps!

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm sorry, I grew up in a household where I could lose salvation if I died before repenting from a sin to a Calvinist "always saved" idea of salvation. What's the difference with Lutheran's view of someone losing salvation?

It really depends on the pastoral circumstances. I don't think either perspective is exactly Lutheran.

 

[Solomon Smith]

The elect are chosen. No one can pluck them out of God’s hand. Once you are saved you are truly saved for eternity.

 

[Not David]

The elect are chosen. No one can pluck them out of God’s hand. Once you are saved you are truly saved for eternity.

Sounds so Calvinist coming from a Lutheran.

 

[Solomon Smith]

Sounds so Calvinist coming from a Lutheran.

I’ll be honest with you. Even though I am Lutheran I think that the Calvinists have things right. The TULIP seems correct to me.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sounds so Calvinist coming from a Lutheran.

We do believe the elect are chosen, but we don't exactly put it into a TULIP framework.

This part of Lutheran theology is very messy. Sometimes Lutherans sound like Wesleyans, sometimes we sound Reformed/Calvinistic.

 

[zippy2006]

Our churches teach that people cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works.

McCain, P. T. (Ed.). (2005). Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (p. 33). St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

Unfortunately that doesn't connect very well with the Catechism reference given.

1. Supernatural merit is possible when a Christian is moved through the Holy Spirit.
2. Supernatural merit is not possible by one's own strength.

They don't contradict. So where precisely is the issue?

(This is just the question I see as more fruitful. It is even less contradictory when you consider the first sentence of CCC 2027, which essentially refers to what Lutherans call justification.)

 

[Athanasius377]

Unfortunately that doesn't connect very well with the Catechism reference given.

1. Supernatural merit is possible when a Christian is moved through the Holy Spirit.
2. Supernatural merit is not possible by one's own strength.

They don't contradict. So where precisely is the issue?

(This is just the question I see as more fruitful. It is even less contradictory when you consider the first sentence of CCC 2027, which essentially refers to what Lutherans call justification.)

I disagree. The CCC reference is framed in the overall discussion of Grace and Merit. Article V of the Augsburg confession is a summary of belief where as the CCC section is far more detailed. It is not only paragraph 2027 but 1987 through 2030. So to answer your question requires a rather verbose answer because there is an underlying presupposition in your question (and my previous answer). The best is a Lutheran can give is found in the Apology of Augsburg confession IV.

I summary we believe that God is the one who saves from beginning to end. Any merit we earn is never enough to warrant God to justify us (declare righteous) only the merits of Christ can do such a thing. Lutherans do not believe that one can cooperate in our justification. Good works, or as you might call meritorious works are the result of justification not the cause of justification.

 

[zippy2006]

I disagree.

...with what?

So to answer your question requires a rather verbose answer...

I agree.

The best is a Lutheran can give is found in the Apology of Augsburg confession IV.

Is that the best they can give? Lutherans--at least on CF--seem to rely very heavily on quotes and documents rather than giving answers in their own words. As is so often the case, and is the case here, the quotes given do not address the heart of the issue. They just skim over the surface. That's what I am interested in: a "verbose" answer that includes context and drills into the fundamental issues.

I summary we believe that God is the one who saves from beginning to end. Any merit we earn is never enough to warrant God to justify us (declare righteous) only the merits of Christ can do such a thing. Lutherans do not believe that one can cooperate in our justification. Good works, or as you might call meritorious works are the result of justification not the cause of justification.

Thanks, that is a great start!

 

[Newtheran]

As far as using quotes, originally sourced material is the best material.

 

[zippy2006]

As far as using quotes, originally sourced material is the best material.

In the original language?

No one needs a forum to read the Augsburg confession.

 

[Athanasius377]

In the original language?

No one needs a forum to read the Augsburg confession.

I didn't quote from the Augsburg Confession, I quoted from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. If you can't be bothered to read what I quoted then be assured I will not be writing an in depth response as it probably won't be read either.

 

[zippy2006]

I didn't quote from the Augsburg Confession, I quoted from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. If you can't be bothered to read what I quoted then be assured I will not be writing an in depth response as it probably won't be read either.

I am fully aware of what you quoted from, and I never claimed otherwise. I was intentionally broadening the discussion beyond your post, but my point applies equally well to it. I have read the Augsburg Confession and some other documents from the Book of Concord such as the one you referenced, and although I am not opposed to reading them again they don't replace or approximate ecumenical dialogue.