• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Sola Fide Question

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by David Neos, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

    +3,615
    Ecuador
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Howdy! Even tho I know that Lutherans believe in Faith Alone and Catholics believe in Faith + Works, how come they sound similar when there is a discussion about those two? For example, Lutherans don't believe in Antinominalism so if they don't do works then they don't have faith. On the other hand, Catholics don't believe that by doing works only you can be saved but by having faith too. Can someone clarify my confusion?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

    824
    +923
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Here is a simple answer and I will follow up with a more complete answer. Lutherans believe that Justification (right standing, legally speaking) is apart from sanctification yet are linked. Think of the parable of the goats and the sheep. What do sheep do?
    They do sheepy things, it's in their nature.
    What do Goats do?
    Goaty things.
    Why, because it's what they do according to their natures. Does a sheep know it is acting like a sheep? No, because it such a part of what it means to be a sheep that a sheep wouldn't realise it is acting like a sheep. Mt 25:31–46

    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    So where does faith and and works come into play. Simply put good works are done because it is now in your nature do them. You are created in Christ to do good works. . .
    Eph 2:8–10)
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    Good works are something that a sheep does, because it is part of his nature.

    A goat can never do the work of a sheep since that would be against his nature.

    I will contrast the roman position when I have a few more moments.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  3. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +38,714
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Here's something that may prove interesting from the CCC:

    2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. ~Catechism of the Catholic Church
    Where to Lutherans stand on the idea of "meriting" (for yourselves and/or for others) the graces needed to obtain eternal life?

    --David
    p.s. - I know the RCC teaches that whenever a mortal/grave sin is committed, shipwreck is made of one's faith and salvation is lost, but they also teach that salvation can be regained through the sacrament of penance. What do Lutherans teach about the loss of/regaining of one's salvation? Thanks :)

    1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as “the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace.” (979; 1856; 1990) ~Catechism of the Catholic Church
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  4. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

    +3,615
    Ecuador
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    I'm sorry, I grew up in a household where I could lose salvation if I died before repenting from a sin to a Calvinist "always saved" idea of salvation. What's the difference with Lutheran's view of someone losing salvation?
     
  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    +38,714
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Hi David, I will, of course, defer to all of our Lutheran brothers as far as your question is concerned. My question is actually about the next rung up on the ladder, so to speak (IOW, it's about the ability to regain what was lost, and whether or not Lutherans believe that such a thing is possible, like our Catholic friends do).

    As you pointed out above, for a Calvinist, there is nothing to regain, not because we believe we are "always saved" (no matter what), rather, because we believe that those who truly belong to God, His saints, will, in the end, persevere in the faith (because the Lord will make sure that we do).

    --David
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

    +7,541
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
     
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,951
    Anabaptist
    Did you receive Salvation in Jesus while you were in the household you grew up in ?
    Or later ?
     
  8. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

    824
    +923
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Sorry for the delay, I nearly forgot about this thread. To answer your question I would point you to the Augsburg Confession Article V:


    1 Our churches teach that people cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works. 2 People are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake. By His death, Christ made satisfaction for our sins. 3 God counts this faith for righteousness in His sight (Romans 3 and 4 [3:21–26; 4:5].

    McCain, P. T. (Ed.). (2005). Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (p. 33). St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

    Again from the Augsburg Confession Article XII:

    1 Our churches teach that there is forgiveness of sins for those who have fallen after Baptism whenever they are converted. 2 The Church ought to impart Absolution to those who return to repentance [Jeremiah 3:12]. 3 Now, strictly speaking, repentance consists of two parts. 4 One part is contrition, that is, terrors striking the conscience through the knowledge of sin. 5 The other part is faith, which is born of the Gospel [Romans 10:17] or the Absolution and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven. It comforts the conscience and delivers it from terror. 6 Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruit of repentance [Galatians 5:22–23].

    McCain, P. T. (Ed.). (2005). Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (p. 38). St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.

    In short we believe that one can fall away from the faith and then restored. There is a more thorough statement regarding our doctrine of election in the Formula of Concord Article XI.

    I hope this helps!
     
  9. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +9,550
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    It really depends on the pastoral circumstances. I don't think either perspective is exactly Lutheran.
     
  10. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

    477
    +212
    United States
    Lutheran
    Single
    The elect are chosen. No one can pluck them out of God’s hand. Once you are saved you are truly saved for eternity.
     
  11. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

    +3,615
    Ecuador
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Sounds so Calvinist coming from a Lutheran.
     
  12. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

    477
    +212
    United States
    Lutheran
    Single
    I’ll be honest with you. Even though I am Lutheran I think that the Calvinists have things right. The TULIP seems correct to me.
     
  13. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +9,550
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    We do believe the elect are chosen, but we don't exactly put it into a TULIP framework.

    This part of Lutheran theology is very messy. Sometimes Lutherans sound like Wesleyans, sometimes we sound Reformed/Calvinistic.
     
  14. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

    +1,188
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    Unfortunately that doesn't connect very well with the Catechism reference given.
    1. Supernatural merit is possible when a Christian is moved through the Holy Spirit.
    2. Supernatural merit is not possible by one's own strength.

    They don't contradict. So where precisely is the issue?

    (This is just the question I see as more fruitful. It is even less contradictory when you consider the first sentence of CCC 2027, which essentially refers to what Lutherans call justification.)
     
  15. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

    824
    +923
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I disagree. The CCC reference is framed in the overall discussion of Grace and Merit. Article V of the Augsburg confession is a summary of belief where as the CCC section is far more detailed. It is not only paragraph 2027 but 1987 through 2030. So to answer your question requires a rather verbose answer because there is an underlying presupposition in your question (and my previous answer). The best is a Lutheran can give is found in the Apology of Augsburg confession IV.

    I summary we believe that God is the one who saves from beginning to end. Any merit we earn is never enough to warrant God to justify us (declare righteous) only the merits of Christ can do such a thing. Lutherans do not believe that one can cooperate in our justification. Good works, or as you might call meritorious works are the result of justification not the cause of justification.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  16. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

    +1,188
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    ...with what?

    I agree.

    Is that the best they can give? Lutherans--at least on CF--seem to rely very heavily on quotes and documents rather than giving answers in their own words. As is so often the case, and is the case here, the quotes given do not address the heart of the issue. They just skim over the surface. That's what I am interested in: a "verbose" answer that includes context and drills into the fundamental issues.

    Thanks, that is a great start!
     
  17. Newtheran

    Newtheran Well-Known Member

    785
    +556
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Republican
    As far as using quotes, originally sourced material is the best material.
     
  18. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

    +1,188
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    In the original language?

    No one needs a forum to read the Augsburg confession.
     
  19. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

    824
    +923
    United States
    Lutheran
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I didn't quote from the Augsburg Confession, I quoted from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession. If you can't be bothered to read what I quoted then be assured I will not be writing an in depth response as it probably won't be read either.
     
  20. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

    +1,188
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    I am fully aware of what you quoted from, and I never claimed otherwise. I was intentionally broadening the discussion beyond your post, but my point applies equally well to it. I have read the Augsburg Confession and some other documents from the Book of Concord such as the one you referenced, and although I am not opposed to reading them again they don't replace or approximate ecumenical dialogue.
     
Loading...