Haulocaust Question

[Dave L]

Ah, the tree, only tree btw, Jesus cursed and it withered? That’s the tree you mean? I say again, the tree Jesus walked by and judged for having NO FRUIT and cursed and NEVER BORE FRUIT AGAIN? That’s the symbol for Israel?

Never thought about it but since Jesus, no fruit of Gods kingdom has been seen in Israel. No messages of peace. No demonstration of a just society. Israel is known for being on the take when it comes to money and helps no nation on earth. Their laws are unjust against foreigners. It’s dangerous to share the gospel there. No fruit of God blessings or His even being there.

“And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.” (Matthew 21:19)

“For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:24)

 

[Dave L]

I know there are Christians who called the church Israel. Never heard anyone til now call Jesus Israel though. Well I don’t speak against this, it’s just a foreign concept to me. I’ve been to Israel twice and so I don’t think that’s a compliment. One of the two most idolatrous places I’ve ever seen, Rome being the second.

Jesus is Israel “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) compare to;

“And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus is Israel “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) compare to;

“And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

The OT calls him Emmanuel
too. Different names for same guy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.” (Matthew 21:19)

“For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:24)

There’s a mix in metaphors here. Jesus says he is the vine. Olives don’t grow on vines. Branches cut off FROM the vine can be grafted back into the vine. Jews who decide to believe who are still Israel although unbelieving, can be grafted into Jesus. They aren’t grafted into Israel never having left.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.” (Matthew 21:19)

“For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:24)

Many years ago i heard the fig tree is the symbols for Israel. Never heard the olive tree.

 

[Dave L]

There’s a mix in metaphors here. Jesus says he is the vine. Olives don’t grow on vines. Branches cut off FROM the vine can be grafted back into the vine. Jews who decide to believe who are still Israel although unbelieving, can be grafted into Jesus. They aren’t grafted into Israel never having left.

But Romans 11 is a real eye opener if you spend some time in it. The key to understanding it is in the broken off branches being reattached by faith in Christ, clear at the bottom.

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:23)

Belief attaches us to Jesus. = we are Israel, not the broken off branches.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But Romans 11 is a real eye opener if you spend some time in it. The key to understanding it is in the broken off branches being reattached by faith in Christ, clear at the bottom.

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:23)

Belief attaches us to Jesus. = we are Israel, not the broken off branches.

Doesn’t say we are Israel but ok. It’s just I’m a Christian, not an Israelite. Being called that is foreign and not at all appealing to me. It’s fine if it means sumpin to others.

 

[Dave L]

Doesn’t say we are Israel but ok. It’s just I’m a Christian, not an Israelite. Being called that is foreign and not at all appealing to me. It’s fine if it means sumpin to others.

Here's something to consider. Paul, all the Apostles and thousands of Jews converted to Christ at Pentecost and beyond were Israel. God removed the unbelievers leaving only them. It is into this Israel God grafts believing gentiles. And he promises to reattach any of the broken off through faith in Christ. The broken off Jews became Antichrists (not THE Antichrist) because John says anyone who does not believe Jesus the Messiah came in the flesh is an Antichrist. Also consider:

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here's something to consider. Paul, all the Apostles and thousands of Jews converted to Christ at Pentecost and beyond were Israel. God removed the unbelievers leaving only them. It is into this Israel God grafts believing gentiles. And he promises to reattach any of the broken off through faith in Christ. The broken off Jews became Antichrists (not THE Antichrist) because John says anyone who does not believe Jesus the Messiah came in the flesh is an Antichrist. Also consider:

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

Peter and John and the rest of the disciples were converted to Christ long before Pentecost. In his speech, Peter did not refer to them as Israel though.

I also do not believe the Jews are Antichrists. In those decades before the destruction of Jerusalem, they were in every definition one thinks of since they murdered hundreds of CHristians for just being Christians. But not since.

Notice the scripture you quote does not say, he that believeth on the Son is grafted into Israel.

 

[Dave L]

Peter and John and the rest of the disciples were converted to Christ long before Pentecost. In his speech, Peter did not refer to them as Israel though.

I also do not believe the Jews are Antichrists. In those decades before the destruction of Jerusalem, they were in every definition one thinks of since they murdered hundreds of CHristians for just being Christians. But not since.

Notice the scripture you quote does not say, he that believeth on the Son is grafted into Israel.

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22)

“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)

“And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” (2 John 6–7)

Jesus is Israel “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

compare to;

“And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22)

“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)

“And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” (2 John 6–7)

Jesus is Israel “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

compare to;

“And (Jesus) was there (in Egypt) until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

Do you call unbelievers “antichrist” in accordance with the above? Does that help them repent?

 

[Dave L]

Do you call unbelievers “antichrist” in accordance with the above? Does that help them repent?

Any who do not believe the Messiah (Jesus) has already come to earth is an Antichrist according to John. All of the Jewish believers accepted Jesus as the Messiah and remained Israel under Christ. Those who did not think he was the promised Messiah exist today only because of their hatred and rejection of Jesus. These God broke off from Israel and John calls them Antichrists.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Any who do not believe the Messiah (Jesus) has already come to earth is an Antichrist according to John. All of the Jewish believers accepted Jesus as the Messiah and remained Israel under Christ. Those who did not think he was the promised Messiah exist today only because of their hatred and rejection of Jesus. These God broke off from Israel and John calls them Antichrists.

That’s not what I asked. I asked if you call all unbelievers the “antichrist” as you claim you believe. Was wondering if you stand by what you claim in reality.

 

[Dave L]

That’s not what I asked. I asked if you call all unbelievers the “antichrist” as you claim you believe. Was wondering if you stand by what you claim in reality.

I don't think this is what John has in mind. Unbelievers aren't concerned about Jesus. But the Jews who look for the Messiah and reject Jesus as the Messiah are Antichrists according to John. They say the Messiah did not arrive in the flesh, saying Jesus was an impostor now in hell. And they look for another. The Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah continued as Israel.

 

[JoeP222w]

Actually, the Bible says His will is NOT DONE on the earth

Bible verse reference for this assertion?

God is sovereign does not mean God is micromanaging the world.

Micromanaging in the sinful sense that man micromanages, yes that is correct.

However, God is involved in the minutiae of life. If there is a single stray electron that is not under God's control, than He is not God. Not one molecule or one galaxy does anything apart from the sovereign decree of God.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

“I am the vine.” Jesus

Jesus does know his subject well.

But not in that verse or in that context

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Your posts prove you are quick to insult and do not know your subject.

I only say what I see...

 

[RDKirk]

Bible verse reference for this assertion?

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. -- 1 Timothy 2

I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of .... and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition -- John 17

Micromanaging in the sinful sense that man micromanages, yes that is correct.

However, God is involved in the minutiae of life. If there is a single stray electron that is not under God's control, than He is not God. Not one molecule or one galaxy does anything apart from the sovereign decree of God.

Quantum physics theory suggests that a conscious judgment must be made to determine whether, in fact, every event actually happens, from the smallest subatomic reaction to the colliding of galaxies, and without that conscious judgment, no event would ever actually happen.

 

[JoeP222w]

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. -- 1 Timothy 2

I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of .... and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition -- John 17

How does this show that God's will is not accomplished on earth?

And if you say from 1 Timothy 2, that means all men who have ever existed are not saved and God's will is frustrated, you are saying that man's will is greater and more powerful than God's will, and then God is not sovereign.

1 Timothy 2 is referring to all "kinds" of men (1 Timothy 2:1-2), it is not referring to universal salvation or that God is frustrated in not being able to save all mankind who has ever existed. It is saying that ruler, kings, slaves, servants, Jew and Gentiles, God will save according to His own counsel. Not because man has the ability to frustrate God's will.


John 17 is not saying that God's will is not accomplished. Judas was never meant to be saved, as Judas never trusted in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord. God used Judas to accomplish His decree of glorifying Jesus Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I only say what I see...

No, you only think you do.