Is abortion ever acceptable?

[football5680]

No. It is still an innocent life regardless of the surrounding circumstances.

 

[redleghunter]

I applaud a rape victim who would make the choice to carry the fetus to term. However, it needs to remain the choice of the rape victim. It shouldn't be forced on her as some in this thread say should be the case.

Actually no one on this thread has advocated forcing a woman who was raped to have a child.

We have been exploring the moral justification(s) for the premeditated termination (intentional killing) of an unborn human life due to rape.

Your answer is one is justified in taking another’s life in the case of rape because pregnancy for rape victims is the very definition of slavery. The child must die to release the raped victim from a personal psychological enslavement.

Do I explain your reasoning correctly above?

 

[redleghunter]

Or better. Why are so many men in this thread denying the rights of the human life in the woman’s womb.

Why can’t they address the moral dilemma of the premeditated killing of male and female developing humans regardless of how they got there in the first place.

Is it they don’t care? They don’t acknowledge the obvious that these are human beings too made in the Image and according to the likeness of God regardless of age or stage of development?

Or is it they know these are human beings male and female made in God’s image, but as such believe pregnant women have a right to terminate Gods creation?

 

[redleghunter]

Wrong. A pregnancy by choice wouldn't fit the definition because it is by choice. A rape victim has no choice, just as a slave has no choice.

Choice determines our moral worth?

 

[redleghunter]

You seem to have no compassion whatsoever for a woman who has been raped.

Actually think about it. He does have compassion.

It’s those that tell her to abort are actually making her a murderer.

She is a rape victim. By aborting her own child she makes the child a victim and she becomes the oppressor like the person who raped her.

In effect all she has done is continue the cycle of violence and hate.

 

[SPF]

Why is it that many of those in this thread who say that rape victims shouldn't be permitted to terminate the pregnancy are men? Of course they will never be in the position of becoming pregnant as a result of being raped, but they don't mind trying to force their views on an innocent woman.

Probably because most of the people engaged in this discussion are men. Here's a female's voice in the discussion though:

"I'm not saying this is an easy decision to make. IF I'm honest, I don't know if I would have the courage not to have an abortion in those circumstances. But what I do know is that if I did have an abortion, it would be wrong, and I would be guilty of destroying an innocent life in an effort to make my own life less difficult." -AnnaDeborah

I think though for all of us, our position on abortion ultimately does come down to how we view the life of the child inside the womb. If a person doesn't consider the unborn child a human being that possesses the same inherent moral worth and value as a human being outside the womb - then they're likely to be OK with abortion.

However, for those people that do believe that human beings are morally valuable from conception, there is no logically consistent view to hold other than that the 98% of abortions which are done for convenience reasons are immoral.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Can you take this statement beyond the unsupported mere pronouncement of fact that it currently is? Can you provide some Scriptural support for this opinion?

Its a very simple thing to support. There is one organ which, if removed, eliminates the person. That is the brain. You can replace the heart. You can replace the lungs. You can replace anything else.

That is one support for this opinion.

There is also the light shed on this subject by the developing nature of computers and software. Computers are wonderful tools, but without the active software happening inside, they don't work. The analogy to body and soul is clear and compelling.

So that's another support for this opinion.

Someday, should our Lord tarry, we'll have a computer that claims to be a person. How will you suggest we judge that computer's claim?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Wow. Perhaps review the doctrines of the 6 ecumenical councils dealing with the Deity of Christ and the Trinity before making the above statement.

Don't look at me, take it up with the person who insists that only humans can be a person. Oh wait, wasn't that you?

Ok how did your human toe end up in a womb? I probably don’t want to hear this answer but that is where your reasoning is leading the conversation.

You show yourself unable to respond reasonably to normal conversation.

 

[dreadnought]

I can't understand how people can have so little consideration for our most innocent children.

Can you honestly not answer the question? You assert that we have no clue and that Scripture never addresses when a human being gets a soul. I wonder if you think that John the Baptist, who literally leaps for joy in his mother's womb in Luke 1, and who we are told was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb - had a soul. I think your refusal to answer the question is a subtle way of acknowledging that it's obvious he did have a soul, right?

We don't know if the Lord has put a soul in those children. We do know the women have been raped. Would you allow abortion if the woman's life was in danger because of her pregnancy?

 

[dreadnought]

Therefore kill it before we know for sure?

The point isn't to kill the unborn child. The point is to spare a woman the pregnancy if it's the result of rape. Would you grant her an abortion if her life was in danger because of her pregnancy?

 

[dreadnought]

Actually think about it. He does have compassion.

It’s those that tell her to abort are actually making her a murderer.

She is a rape victim. By aborting her own child she makes the child a victim and she becomes the oppressor like the person who raped her.

In effect all she has done is continue the cycle of violence and hate.

He seems to have no compassion towards the rape victim. We don't know when the Lord puts a soul into a human being, but we do know the woman has been raped. Would you allow an abortion if the woman's life was in danger because of her pregnancy?

 

[redleghunter]

Its a very simple thing to support. There is one organ which, if removed, eliminates the person. That is the brain. You can replace the heart. You can replace the lungs. You can replace anything else.

The above does help me understand your approach to the subject. It’s based on a materialistic worldview.

Now taking your argument that if the brain is removed (which is a materialistic presupposition), I could too argue the brain does not function without getting oxygen which requires a circulatory system. I could just as strongly argue if one critical organ or system is missing then the brain does not work, thus negating a position based on neural activity.

Secondly, using your materialistic presupposition, I could argue that at all stages of life a human being is exactly the way it should look and function.

 

[redleghunter]

Don't look at me, take it up with the person who insists that only humans can be a person. Oh wait, wasn't that you?

The definition of person I gave from the dictionary defines us as individual human beings. It was not theologically defining God’s Nature but His creation.

You show yourself unable to respond reasonably to normal conversation.

It was you who offered the absurdity of a human toe as an equivalent to a human fetus.

 

[redleghunter]

The point isn't to kill the unborn child. The point is to spare a woman the pregnancy if it's the result of rape.

Yet the end result is the human life in the womb is killed. How do you justify taking a life which has done no harm in the name of mental anguish?

Yes the mental anguish is real and certain. Yet so is the premeditated killing of an innocent life. This just compounds the evil wrought by the rape itself instead of counteracting the hate with the Love of Christ. By acquiescing to the evil and engaging in revenge upon the innocent human life for something a rapist did, the victim woman becomes the violator of innocent life and sheds innocent blood.

What some call a choice (and it is) becomes a premeditated decision to end innocent life.

Would you grant her an abortion if her life was in danger because of her pregnancy?

In the case of rape is the woman’s life at stake? Is it a situation where there are two equally moral human lives at stake with both having the right to life?

Read well what I wrote. In the case of the mothers life it is a matter of two human beings who have a right to life. Just as a young man who comes into the hospital with serious injuries has the same right to life as the elderly man with the similar injuries. Do we cart out of the ER grandpa because he only has a few years left anyway? No both men are equally morally valuable as made in the image of God. It is our moral duty to attempt to save both regardless at how old or how little they are.

 

[redleghunter]

He seems to have no compassion towards the rape victim. We don't know when the Lord puts a soul into a human being, but we do know the woman has been raped. Would you allow an abortion if the woman's life was in danger because of her pregnancy?

The gentleman @SPF finds rape as abhorrent and evil. He’s been focusing on why the child in the womb is dismissed as something evil that must be removed.

Believe me as he has shared often on these threads he is very active in knowing how unwanted pregnancies produce unwanted children. That is why he and his family foster children and I think he has adopted as well. So I think he is familiar with the pain and anguish of rape on the victim. As such his Christian heart to foster gives such women in anguish options other than terminating the innocent life.

 

[dreadnought]

The gentleman @SPF finds rape as abhorrent and evil. He’s been focusing on why the child in the womb is dismissed as something evil that must be removed.

Believe me as he has shared often on these threads he is very active in knowing how unwanted pregnancies produce unwanted children. That is why he and his family foster children and I think he has adopted as well. So I think he is familiar with the pain and anguish of rape on the victim. As such his Christian heart to foster gives such women in anguish options other than terminating the innocent life.

It isn't that the unborn child is evil. It's that the rape victim might not want to carry that child to birth.

 

[redleghunter]

It isn't that the unborn child is evil. It's that the rape victim might not want to carry that child to birth.

What is your Christian justification to kill a human life for a life that was not taken?

 

[dreadnought]

What is your Christian justification to kill a human life for a life that was not taken?

We don't that the unborn child has a soul. We do know the woman was raped.

 

[SPF]

We don't know if the Lord has put a soul in those children. We do know the women have been raped. Would you allow abortion if the woman's life was in danger because of her pregnancy?

You’re worse than a politician.

I’m specifically asking you about the specific Biblical example of John the Baptist in Luke 1. While he was in the womb, he not only leapt for joy, we are told that he was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb.

You keep saying that we don’t know when a human being received a soul.

My question is simple, based upon the story in Luke 1, do you believe that John the Baptist had a soul at the point in which he leaped for joy?

The gentleman @SPF finds rape as abhorrent and evil. He’s been focusing on why the child in the womb is dismissed as something evil that must be removed.

Believe me as he has shared often on these threads he is very active in knowing how unwanted pregnancies produce unwanted children. That is why he and his family foster children and I think he has adopted as well. So I think he is familiar with the pain and anguish of rape on the victim. As such his Christian heart to foster gives such women in anguish options other than terminating the innocent life.

And thank you redleghunter. I do indeed care deeply, and often times I may seem to lack emotion, but that’s because I try to stay focused on the topic and on the principles we are trying to establish.

It’s also not only an ad hominem attack against me, but it’s also a red herring to distract from the important discussion, so it’s really not worth responding to anyway.

But yes, I do put my money where my mouth is so to speak, having fostered over 50 infants, and supported many women who need care, spending in the six figures at this point.

It is indeed because of my involvement and experience in this issue that I think it’s so important to discuss.

 

[dreadnought]

You’re worse than a politician.

Because I don't agree with you?