Is abortion ever acceptable?

[SPF]

We don't know if that human being has a soul, yet. We do know that the mother has been raped. Where is her justice? Would you allow an abortion if the mother might die by giving birth?

John the Baptist, in Luke 1, literally jumps for joy while still in his mother's womb. It also says that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, while still in his mother's womb. I'm curious, would you at the very least acknowledge that John the Baptist at this stage of development had a soul?

 

[dreadnought]

John the Baptist, in Luke 1, literally jumps for joy while still in his mother's womb. It also says that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, while still in his mother's womb. I'm curious, would you at the very least acknowledge that John the Baptist at this stage of development had a soul?

You seem to have no compassion whatsoever for a woman who has been raped.

 

[SPF]

You seem to have no compassion whatsoever for a woman who has been raped.

I don't see how that answers the question.

John the Baptist, in Luke 1, literally jumps for joy while still in his mother's womb. It also says that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, while still in his mother's womb. I'm curious, would you at the very least acknowledge that John the Baptist at this stage of development had a soul?

 

[dreadnought]

I don't see how that answers the question.

John the Baptist, in Luke 1, literally jumps for joy while still in his mother's womb. It also says that he was filled with the Holy Spirit, while still in his mother's womb. I'm curious, would you at the very least acknowledge that John the Baptist at this stage of development had a soul?

I can't understand how people can have so little consideration for a woman who has been raped.

 

[SPF]

I can't understand how people can have so little consideration for a woman who has been raped.

I can't understand how people can have so little consideration for our most innocent children.

Can you honestly not answer the question? You assert that we have no clue and that Scripture never addresses when a human being gets a soul. I wonder if you think that John the Baptist, who literally leaps for joy in his mother's womb in Luke 1, and who we are told was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb - had a soul. I think your refusal to answer the question is a subtle way of acknowledging that it's obvious he did have a soul, right?

 

[redleghunter]

No, but according to Jewish theology a fetus becomes human at first breath.

Please share these Scriptures.

Or do you mean post 2nd Temple Jewish tradition?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The soul or spirit of a human being does not exist?

The soul is an emergent phenomenon of the functioning of the brain.

No difference. Person is defined as a human being regarded as an individual. If you have a different definition let's have it.

So you deny the trinity, God can't be three persons in one, since he isn't human. Oh, maybe your definition is inaccurate after all?

At conception the 23 chromosomes from the mother and father create a distinct (from mother and father) human being. That's settled biology for the past 100 years.

Oh, how does a twin happen to come about? And a triplet? Not allowed for in your oversimplified definitions.

You have a toe. Tell me when you beget/father a toe.
Your toe is not a person because it is not its own distinct individual.

Explain why not since it is a human toe. Of course you are right, but this is a challenge for your ability to reason correctly and clearly explain why not. Remember, it is human.

 

[Holoman]

Only when the mother's life is at risk.

I can't imagine what it is like to be raped, but no matter how horrific it is, I don't see how it justifies killing an unborn child.

I know a woman that was imprisoned, tortured and raped/impregnated in Iran. She fled to Sweden and made the decision to have the child but gave it up for adoption. It wasn't easy for her and it wasn't easy for her meeting her child when they were an adult. I have enormous respect for her going through with her pregnancy and think most women are stronger than they think and can get through such an ordeal.

 

[redleghunter]

We don't know if that human being has a soul, yet.

Therefore kill it before we know for sure?

 

[AnnaDeborah]

Would you allow an abortion if the mother might die by giving birth?

If the mother might die giving birth, the solution is a planned C-section as soon as the baby is big enough to survive - so neither life is lost. If the mother is suffering from a condition which will kill her before the baby is big enough to survive, then abortion will save a life (the mother's) where not aborting would result in the death of both baby and mother. This is totally different to a case of pregnancy by rape, where the mother's life is not endangered.

I'm not saying this is an easy decision to make. IF I'm honest, I don't know if I would have the courage not to have an abortion in those circumstances. But what I do know is that if I did have an abortion, it would be wrong, and I would be guilty of destroying an innocent life in an effort to make my own life less difficult.

I know a woman that was imprisoned, tortured and raped/impregnated in Iran. She fled to Sweden and made the decision to have the child but gave it up for adoption. It wasn't easy for her and it wasn't easy for her meeting her child when they were an adult. I have enormous respect for her going through with her pregnancy and think most women are stronger than they think and can get through such an ordeal.

I've heard other women's testimonies that giving birth and seeing a healthy baby be adopted by people who were longing for a child has helped bring healing to them in similar circumstances. I also know that some women who have had abortions in these circumstances struggle with it in later life. So it shouldn't be assumed that abortion is in the mother's best interests anyway, even if you lay aside the rights of the child.

 

[redleghunter]

Among the definitions of slavery is this one: "a condition compared to that of a slave in respect of exhausting labor or restricted freedom."

Requiring a rape victim to carry the fetus to term certainly meets that definition.

It doesn’t follow. If indeed you want to make this stick then all pregnancies would be enslavement.

 

[Archivist]

Only when the mother's life is at risk.

I can't imagine what it is like to be raped, but no matter how horrific it is, I don't see how it justifies killing an unborn child.

I know a woman that was imprisoned, tortured and raped/impregnated in Iran. She fled to Sweden and made the decision to have the child but gave it up for adoption. It wasn't easy for her and it wasn't easy for her meeting her child when they were an adult. I have enormous respect for her going through with her pregnancy and think most women are stronger than they think and can get through such an ordeal.

I applaud a rape victim who would make the choice to carry the fetus to term. However, it needs to remain the choice of the rape victim. It shouldn't be forced on her as some in this thread say should be the case.

 

[Archivist]

It doesn’t follow. If indeed you want to make this stick then all pregnancies would be enslavement.

Wrong. A pregnancy by choice wouldn't fit the definition because it is by choice. A rape victim has no choice, just as a slave has no choice.

 

[redleghunter]

Please explain the justice of punishing a rape victim twice by forcing her to carry the fetus to term against her will.

What happens when we have two lives involved, one who is burdened by a pregnancy and one relying on the burdened?

In your proposal one who is burdened is justified in taking the life of another human being who is innocent of any wrongdoing other than being alive.

So actually this has very little to do with rape as it is more about burden. Another word for burden is inconvenience.

We can see where this is going. Abortion on demand for any reason.

 

[redleghunter]

Wrong. A pregnancy by choice wouldn't fit the definition because it is by choice. A rape victim has no choice, just as a slave has no choice.

Many women get pregnant by choice and still deem the pregnancy a burden like the woman who was raped.

You already said the reason it is justified for a woman to terminate the human life in her womb for rape was because of burden.

 

[Dave-W]

Abortion is the termination of the baby, if the baby is dead and they must remove the baby it is impossible for it to be abortion even though they might use the term.

Abortion terminates a pregnancy. If the baby has died but is still in utero - the mother is still technically pregnant.

 

[SPF]

The soul is an emergent phenomenon of the functioning of the brain.

Can you take this statement beyond the unsupported mere pronouncement of fact that it currently is? Can you provide some Scriptural support for this opinion?

 

[Archivist]

Many women get pregnant by choice and still deem the pregnancy a burden like the woman who was raped.

You already said the reason it is justified for a woman to terminate the human life in her womb for rape was because of burden.

I don't think I ever said that.

 

[Archivist]

Why is it that many of those in this thread who say that rape victims shouldn't be permitted to terminate the pregnancy are men? Of course they will never be in the position of becoming pregnant as a result of being raped, but they don't mind trying to force their views on an innocent woman.

 

[redleghunter]

The soul is an emergent phenomenon of the functioning of the brain.

Source of the statement above please.

So you deny the trinity, God can't be three persons in one, since he isn't human. Oh, maybe your definition is inaccurate after all?

Wow. Perhaps review the doctrines of the 6 ecumenical councils dealing with the Deity of Christ and the Trinity before making the above statement.

Explain why not since it is a human toe. Of course you are right, but this is a challenge for your ability to reason correctly and clearly explain why not. Remember, it is human.

Ok how did your human toe end up in a womb? I probably don’t want to hear this answer but that is where your reasoning is leading the conversation.