Did John the Baptist sin?

[Marvin Knox]

You would have to believe in reincarnation to say that.

That simply isn't so.

Reincarnation entails dying and then coming back again - likely many, many times throughout history.

Elijah did not die.

Yohanan himself said he was not Eliyahu HaNavi.

Let's see now. Jesus said John was Elijah. John said he wasn't Elijah.

Who shall we believe?

Conclusion = he was Elijah and didn't realize it.

Pretty wise of God to have it be that way if you think of it. Can you imagine him living his life as John and thinking about all the things he did as Elijah?

He was one "crying in the wilderness"

Obviously - that's what the Word of God says.

P.S. - God obviously knows that some people just can't get past the reincarnation hurtle - even though it clearly isn't reincarnation.

If you can't receive it for whatever reason, you're not alone - by all means go ahead and ignore what the Lord said. He obviously won't hold your lack of faith in His teaching on the subject against you.

 

[SkyWriting]

Maybe.

Jesus meant exactly what He said, as He spoke the Father's Word and not even His own it is more sure.

In english?

 

[SkyWriting]

But questions are not willful sins. There are two types of sins. Willful and unintentional trespasses. (Sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death)

The only sin that leads to death is rejecting God.
And that's your problem.
God is familiar with all the worst of sin and has no malice.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That simply isn't so.

Reincarnation entails dying and then coming back again - likely many, many times throughout history.

Elijah did not die.

Let's see now. Jesus said John was Elijah. John said he wasn't Elijah.

Who shall we believe?

Conclusion = he was Elijah and didn't realize it.

That makes no sense. How does Eliyahu come back as Yohanan, as a child? Yeshua said Yohanan was "if you will have it". He came in the spirit of Eliyahu.

 

[Marvin Knox]

That makes no sense.

If you can't receive the Lord's teaching on the matter - it OK by me since it's OK by the Lord Himself.

How does Eliyahu come back as Yohanan, as a child? Yeshua said Yohanan was "if you will have it".

Perhaps when we figure out that whole incarnation thing - this subject will be next in line to figure out.

He came in the spirit of Eliyahu.

Exactly so.

P.S. - Since you quite understandably lack the faith to receive what the Lord clearly said - IMO it would be better if you just let it stand that way rather than teaching negatively on His teaching here in the forum.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If you can't receive the Lord's teaching on the matter - it OK by me since it's OK by the Lord Himself.

Perhaps when we figure out that whole incarnation thing - this subject will be next in line to figure out.

Exactly so.

P.S. - Since you quite understandably lack the faith to receive what the Lord clearly said - IMO it would be better if you just let it stand that way rather than teaching negatively on His teaching here in the forum.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

well will Eliyahu be one of the 2 witnesses IYO? Will Eliyahu come before the dread & terrible day of the Lord?

 

[dreadnought]

You're asking a dog not to bark. Are you on your phone? I'm at my desk. I shouldn't think your memory would be that bad that going back a couple wouldn't jog your memory. Excuses, excuses. LOL

I'm leaving to go swimming.

We don't go swimming at our ages. We take naps or sit in our rocking chairs.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Will Eliyahu come before the dread & terrible day of the Lord?

"And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist."

"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." Matthew 11:13-14

well will Eliyahu be one of the 2 witnesses IYO?

IMO the 2 witnesses from the Book of Revelation are Enoch from before the flood who was taken up into Heaven without dying much as was Elijah representing the old testament - and the Apostle John representing the new testament and of whom we have no authoritative record of his returning after being called up into Heaven by God.

But I wouldn't bet my house on it.

 

[deshepherd]

well will Eliyahu be one of the 2 witnesses IYO? Will Eliyahu come before the dread & terrible day of the Lord?

We do not reincarnate; the Spirit of God reappears in his prophets and witnesses.

 

[deshepherd]

well will Eliyahu be one of the 2 witnesses IYO? Will Eliyahu come before the dread & terrible day of the Lord?

The 2 witnesses were the early christians upto and including the reformers such as Huss and Luther.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The 2 witnesses were the early christians upto and including the reformers such as Huss and Luther.

If you were a betting man - would you bet your house on it?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We do not reincarnate; the Spirit of God reappears in his prophets and witnesses.

That was my point

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The 2 witnesses were the early christians upto and including the reformers such as Huss and Luther.

Um, no

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist."

"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come." Matthew 11:13-14

IMO the 2 witnesses from the Book of Revelation are Enoch from before the flood who was taken up into Heaven without dying much as was Elijah representing the old testament - and the Apostle John representing the new testament and of whom we have no authoritative record of his returning after being called up into Heaven by God.

But I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Well Moshe and Eliyahu appeared with Yeshua at the transfiguration. If Eliyahu is to come before Yeshua's return or is one of the 2 witnesses, Yohanan was killed so how again will he return?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have been over this scripture with you before. You can't take a single scripture and make a doctrine from it. The bible is clear, that we should not sin, BUT if we do we have an advocate with the father, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Christians DO from time to time sin. But it should not be normal to sin. A Christian should not sin. BUT if they do, they can be forgiven. You seem to think a Christian HAS to be 100% sinless, that is a misuse of the word of God. The bible actually says if righteousness comes by keeping the law Christ died in vain. But I will not be able to change your mind for you are so certain of your doctrine.

Do you not know that you keep many out of the kingdom of God, for you refuse to offer them forgiveness, your doctrine is a devils doctrine.

A devil's doctrine is, go ahead and sin, you're forgiven.

You quote 1 John 2:1. Did you notice that there is no asking for forgiveness for those sins? That should give you a clue that they are the same sins that can be called unintentional trespasses of 1 John 1:7. They are NOT willful sins of Hebrews 10:26.

If you are walking in the Spirit, which a Christian does, you are spiritually minded which is life and peace. You are not willfully sinning, which is lawlessness, for to be carnally minded is death.

The person who cannot fully understand and relate to 1 John 3:9 is one who is still carnally minded, and understand the Scriptures through this fog. They believe if I can't relate to this verse, then the meaning of the verse must change - not I. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. "Sin boldly!" Now that is a doctrine of demons.

And Paul joins John and says, "sin is dead." Not the law. Sin is still lawlessness. Jesus didn't take away the law, He took away SIN - our need for the law. The reason why Jesus came is because of SIN, not the law.

Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ... 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well Moshe and Eliyahu appeared with Yeshua at the transfiguration. If Eliyahu is to come before Yeshua's return or is one of the 2 witnesses, Yohanan was killed so how again will he return?

Jesus clearly said he has already returned (as John the Baptist).

As I said - I don't believe he is one of the two witnesses.

He's dead now and "it is given to men once to die and then comes the judgment". If he came again as one of the witnesses - that would indeed be reincarnation.

Believing that Elijah is one of the two future witnesses is a natural consequence of rejecting the teaching of Jesus on the subject of Elijah/John.

As with many doctrines (even though one will not suffer great loss such as loss of salvation for not believing what the scriptures teach) - there will be another kind of loss.

"To him who does not have - even what he thinks he has will be taken away" on the other hand - "to those who have even more will be given to them".

Building doctrine line upon line and precept upon precept is an important principle in the scriptures concerning understanding difficult things.

If you want to not find yourself in the dark on some doctrines you must be sure that you believe all of the scripture and not reject some of it because it's hard to receive.

We really see this play out in the area of soteriology (salvation) where the consequences are much more dire than they are when we are merely ruminating about future things.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jesus clearly said he has already returned (as John the Baptist).

As I said - I don't believe he is one of the two witnesses.

He's dead now and "it is given to men once to die and then comes the judgment". If he came again as one of the witnesses - that would indeed be reincarnation.

Believing that Elijah is one of the two future witnesses is a natural consequence of rejecting the teaching of Jesus on the subject of Elijah/John

So who was Isaiah speaking of, Eliyahu or Yohanan? You say it is the same person, I say no. We differ on this, so be it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So who was Isaiah speaking of, Eliyahu or Yohanan? You say it is the same person, I say no. We differ on this, so be it.

They are one in the same. Jesus said so.

Since you can't or wont receive it - have a good day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They are one in the same. Jesus said so.

Since you can't or wont receive it - have a good day.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called Yohanan in Luke 1:13, not Eliyahu. He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and “shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.” Verse 17 says of Yohanan, “he will also go before Him in the Spirit and power of Eliyahu...”

To claim that Eliyahu is Yohanan is to teach reincarnation. The premise is that a spirit in a former body comes back to be born in another body. At the very least, it is transmigration. The Bible has never taught this.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called Yohanan in Luke 1:13, not Eliyahu.

So what?

Jesus also took a new name when He entered the world.

He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and “shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.”

And your point is what?

Verse 17 says of Yohanan, “he will also go before Him in the Spirit and power of Eliyahu...”

Thank you.
Exactly as I have said.
John went before the Lord, not in a newly created spirit, but in the spirit of Elijah.
John's spirit and the spirit of Elijah were one in the same.

To claim that Eliyahu is Yohanan is to teach reincarnation.

This has been explained to you.

The Lord knows that many, such as yourself, will bristle at the thought of a man living two lives (even if he didn't die during the first life).

Pretend for a moment that you never heard me or anyone like me expound on the concept of John being Elijah.

Now read for the first time, as it were, without prior prejudiced, the words of Christ.

"Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist."

"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come."

Now - if you still cannot receive what the Lord clearly taught - I take it from what He said parenthetically on the subject that it's no really big thing to God.

You are in good company in so resisting the Lord's teaching.

But, as all know, being in the company of a great many doesn't always make a person's theology right.

By the way - do you believe, as Nicodemus should have known as the teacher of Israel, that fallen mankind is spiritually dead and needs to be born again?

Perhaps you don't understand that. Or perhaps you just think that John was conceived without sin and escaped that curse.

Either way you must deal in some way with the fact that John was so spiritually alive in his mother's womb that he recognized his creator when he was in His presence..

I choose to believe that the explanation is to be had in believing what Jesus said about John rather than by subscribing to the idea that John was born sinless just as was the Lord was or some such special case and had no need of being born again as did the rest of mankind.

That's he kind of thing I was alluding to when I spoke of those who have understanding receiving more and those who do not having even what they think they have taken away from them.

Of course if you choose not to explore the scriptures in such a systematic way that's up to you.

There are theologians and then there are theologians.