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Featured Did John the Baptist sin?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by 1stcenturylady, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    You may not know about them. But their doctrines are alive and present, unfortunately.
     
  2. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    When I give my testimony of when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, those whom have also been baptized, rejoice, as I am confirming their own experience. I do the same when I hear others speak of their own experience.

    The only ones with authority are the ones who wrote the Scriptures by inspiration of God. There are those, even on this thread who want to change the meaning and the implication to something they can relate to without having to change anything in themselves. But without the Spirit the true meaning is foolishness to them.

    Test yourselves. Here is an easy test. Are your prayers answered supernaturally, and instantly? Again from 1 John 3:22
     
  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    That was Augustine. But even if he didn't mean it negatively, the Reformers took it to "Sin boldly" The twisting of scripture was nothing new to the Reformers, so could have twisted the words of Augustine as well. For the reformers to advocate sinning at all, when we are dead to sin, is resurrecting the sin nature.
     
  4. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    No one in the Reformed tradition believes or teaches or advocates that we should sin since we are now saved by grace.

    That's nothing but a false representation of what they believe. Don't misrepresent the beliefs and teachings of your brothers and sisters. It doesn't please God.

    Perhaps you are so repulsed and opposed to some of the other teachings of Reformed theologians (such as predestination or election) that you feel that any method you can use to undermine them is warranted - even misrepresenting their beliefs.

    But you know full well that what they do teach is the very biblical concept which says that if we do sin after being saved the grace of God which saved us in the first place apart from our own works of righteousness will abound even more.

    The author of our faith, He who began a good work in us, will carry that work through to completion. We have the promise of God on that.

    That's an honest straight forward teaching and what you say they (we) teach is not an honest representation.
     
  5. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    That begs the question, why not sin so grace can abound even more? It is warped theology. What the good news is, is that we can be free from sin through Jesus Christ. He will give any who repents of sin, His own sinless powerful Spirit so that we are not battling the flesh, but are in the Spirit. But the Reformation teach the opposite - that we will always sin, because we will always be in the flesh. That is the dangerous defeatist doctrine of the Reformation, which twists the words of Paul. What the truth is that Paul and the other apostles teach is for us to be found without spot and blameless - which the Reformation declares impossible.

    2 Peter 3: Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  6. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    No - the doctrine of grace does not assume the conclusion that we should sin that grace may abound even more. That would be warped theology.

    What it assumes is that (as I said) we are assured that we will walk in the righteous acts which He has prepared beforehand knowing that it is He who works within us to do His good pleasure.

    It assumes that He did not start a good work in us only to abandon it when we sin.
    No - what the good news is is that He has already given all men that scripture.

    What that scripture tells them is that those who repent and believe on Him have eternal life and will never again come into condemnation.
    What it teaches is that it is not only possible but that through Christ we have already been declared righteous and have been seated with Him in Heaven. It teaches that we have an advocate before God - Jesus Christ our Lord.
    The Reformers did teach correctly that salvation should result in a life of righteousness.

    But what they also taught and which you seem to have missed is that we are already blameless (justified) in the sight of God precisely because the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.

    What you teach is that our longsuffering is salvation - quite the opposite of what the scripture says.

    You turn the gospel "on it's head".

    We teach that we can do all things through Christ Who strengthens us, But we also teach that, when that strength results in righteous acts as it surely will, those righteous acts are to the praise of His glorious grace and not to the praise of the achievement of a justified status through our having done those righteous acts.

    Interesting that you should quote the passage from 2 Peter - where it tells us of those who find some things which are hard to understand and, "being untaught and unstable, twist them to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scriptures".

    "And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just."
    Romans 3:8

    Interesting that your slander against Paul (and the Reformers) in saying that they taught such things should mirror exactly the people from the scriptures you brought to our attention.

    It is as I have charged you. We teach a gospel of grace and you teach one of works.

    Just as the "untaught and unstable" people in the two passages above did - because you can't understand such grace - you slander those who do.

    Because Peter tells us that the people who do such things also twist the rest of the scriptures - I doubt very much that you will see yourself in the passages by Peter and Paul from 2 Peter and Romans even though the parallel should be obvious.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  7. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I agree with the things you have written above. I don't sin willfully. But to say I or any other Christian has no sin is not scriptural either. To say a Christian can never willfully sin, and if they do they are damned is not correct. The cross covers all sins. We have been called to liberty, but we are not to use that as an excuse to sin, rather serve one another in love.

    Let me try to explain.

    You are right that a person who know Christ will not willfully sin for the Holy Spirit dwells in them. But the Holy Spirit can not override the human will, if a person resists God's Spirit they can sin. God will forgive them, but often times they will not go unpunished, God will refine them through affliction, so that they learn not to sin. He will restore them, but they must again cease from sin. Where I fear your doctrine is wrong is you seem to feel that the cross only covers unintentional sin, however that is not true, the cross covers all sins, both intentional, and unintentional. However God is a refining fire, a person must be refined, to a degree. Yet it is not refinement that saves us but the cross. However a person who uses the cross wrongly will fall into judgment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  8. FIRESTORM314

    FIRESTORM314 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't know how this topic is going and what the conclusions are.

    The bible does say it gives a SAMPLE of his preaching
    " You brood of Vipers ! "

    Well, I would have loved to hear a lot more of that sample - I wish we had a complete recording - what a guy :)
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Think of them as well as you would wish them to think about you.
    This will help.
     
  10. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hello again.

    As we see in the Bible (and certainly in life too) there is nothing of God that Satan doesn't try to imitate. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is no different as we see on 1 Timothy 4:1.

    So its not necessarily cause for celebration to find others with a similar story, rather, it's still a necessary exercise to test the spirits, not only in others but in one's self as well.

    The Bible says exactly what the tests should be, and that's the problem I see in all of your posts. You can quote the Bible but you can't seem to put it into proper context.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it tell you the test of spirits is if you can turn Him into an instant "whatever I want" machine of answered prayer.. God's own Apostles wouldn't pass that test, why? Because it's not a test for testing the Spirits.

    To test the Spirits whether they are from/of God John gave us three tests 1 John 4:1-21 Confession/belief in the truth of Jesus, hearing/understanding His Apostles/Disciples, and love, deep and true for one another and of course God.

    Those three things can seem to be mimicked but cannot ever be faked

    We can only search our own hearts for the answer in ourselves, and of course pray God doesn't allow us to be led astray. Which if we recite the Lord's prayer, His model prayer for us, then we already pray daily that God not allow us to be led astray. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Those who have the Holy Spirit are the most humble in their understanding of position.
    John fully had the Holy Spirit so there is no greater witness to the Holy Spirit than John. But John also knew his place as the ultimate servant to God. Jesus was saying that John was the greatest example of a servant of God to man.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  12. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Actually, the sin-nature is rendered powerless, not by the blood of Christ, but by his cross. Christ's shed blood cleanses us from the stain of sin, but our "old man" - the source of all our sin - is "crucified with Christ." (Romans 6:6) Paul, though, is clear that the "old man," that person we were before we were saved, driven by the impulses of the flesh, carnal and temporal in its focus, and in rebellion toward God is not utterly eradicated from existence. To Christian believers he wrote:

    Galatians 5:15-17
    15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
    16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish
    .

    The Galatian believers were "biting and devouring one another," and failing to "walk in the Spirit," and so "fulfilling the lusts of the flesh." They were not living in the truth of their co-crucifixion with Christ and in moment-by-moment surrender to the Spirit even though they were genuinely born-again believers. Paul went on to explain why this was so by telling the Galatian believers that their flesh and the Spirit were at constant odds, the result being that they were not - as Spirit-regenerated believers - doing what they desired to do.

    I don't see this in Scripture. Paul, for example, rebuked the Corinthian Christians for very willful sin:

    1 Corinthians 6:5-8
    5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?
    6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
    7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?
    8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!


    Did Paul go on to conclude that the Corinthian believers were not saved? No. On the heels of his words in the quotation above, he confirmed that the Corinthian believers - shamefully litigious as they were - were nonetheless genuinely born-again children of God:

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
    10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


    The rebuke doesn't end here. Paul goes on to challenge the born-again at Corinth about sexual immorality (an obviously willful sort of sin):

    1 Corinthians 6:15-18
    15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
    16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For "the two," He says, "shall become one flesh."
    17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
    18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.


    Why is Paul saying these things to the Corinthian believers? Because, it seems plain to me, they were, as Paul described, being sexually immoral and fouling (though not destroying) their union with Christ. Paul does not call these litigious and sexually immoral believers apostate or unsaved, however. Instead, he reminds them that they are members of Christ! (vs. 15) If you are correct that willful sin cannot be committed by a genuine believer, then how is it that Paul refers to the Corinthian believers, who were guilty of so much willful sin, as "members of Christ"?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  13. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Then you haven't heard what I said. It is the Spirit within me doing all the work.

    "When" we sin? That is the difference. It is "IF" not "WHEN"

    That is one of the differences between us.

    The other I am against is the notion that "sin is sin." Christians do not commit willful sin once sanctified. Christ is NOT our advocate for willful sin, as that would require we repent and crucify Him all over again. 1 John 2:1 does not mention we repent again. 1 John 1:7 shows when that verse comes into play - while we are walking in the Spirit.
     
  14. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    We will always be in the carnal flesh. But we have the option not to like it.

    Let's say I'm pastor of a church.
    I have these temptations due to a previous life and eventually I open a locked drawer melt up some heroin and shoot it into my veins. After a few hours of stupor I shoot up again. This time after my head clears, what I've done hits home and I ask God forgiveness.

    My stand is that a Christian is always saved. Your stand is that I'm destined for hell up until the moment I ask for forgiveness for each sin that you identify for me. You say "Christians can't sin", and I say we continue to sin and the only difference is that we trust in God to get us through this life with all it's ups and downs.

    But I don't expect you to change your mind this year. It may take time.
     
  15. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I agree with you the most, but not all. It is obvious you haven't read all I've written on the subject - why would you - but I say the same things. Let me clear up a few things of misunderstanding and assumption, and yet also point out where we disagree.

    When we come to Christ and repent, we could have committed all sorts of willful sins. I do believe those willful sins are blotted out by the blood of Jesus. "ALL sins are cleansed by the blood," that is what is meant on our first repentance to become a Christian. But what the apostles mean is past sins. This is why when we commit a willful sin after being sanctified and you say God will forgive them you are leaving out the necessary step of going back and doing the first works - repentance. Until then the Holy Spirit is still quenched. But I do agree that if we commit an (unintentional) sin there will be consequences resulting in pain of some kind to refine us, and glorify us - make us more like God. From glory to glory. But for you to include willful sin, Peter warns in 2 Peter 2:20 "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: 'A dog returns to his own vomit,' and, 'a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.'”

    Your "God will forgive them" is the Reformation's doctrine of "past, PRESENT AND FUTURE" sins. When the apostles said past only.

    The whole purpose of Jesus giving us the Holy Spirit is to STOP US from even committing present and future sins in the first place. The Reformation just assumed you will commit them, thus leading to a cursed relationship with God.

    You say, "But the Holy Spirit can not override the human will, if a person resists God's Spirit they can sin." You are describing an unsaved person that still has the nature to sin Paul called the flesh or carnal nature (not to be confused with our body that dies as the Reformation does). The will comes from our nature. So the way the Holy Spirit DOES override the carnal nature is by killing it, and replacing it with a new nature. We are new creatures in Christ. It is a nature that abhors sin, not runs to it as the old one did. The Reformation believeed we will always have the sin nature until we die, not recognizing the difference, and do not recognize this powerful action of the Spirit. This error is why the Reformation only sees the blood of Jesus as COVERING our sin, while we still have them. They are merely forgiven, but remain, so the Father can't see them. What that describes is the blood of bulls and goats. But the blood of Jesus takes away our past sin and destroys their memory, not merely covering them, but takes away the sin nature that produced them which we inherited from Adam. Romans 5: 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. This shows the change in nature. Which reigns in us? The carnal nature from Adam, or the new nature from Christ? If you resurrect the carnal nature, Paul tells us the wages of sin is death, not once saved, always saved. So why sin when you don't have to. God gives us a way of escape, so resist the devil as you've been equipped to do. Guard your mind.

    This is why it is not our righteousness born out of a sinful nature, which is like filthy rags; but the righteousness of God that will naturally flow through our new nature. We cannot boast about anything good we do. Christ did it all.

    All we have to do is not quench the Spirit. That is an easy yoke to bear.



     
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Read #135 as it seems to also be a response appropriate to yours.
     
  17. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    LOL I never said answered prayer was a test for 'testing the spirits', but I didn't say what I meant, so you are quite right to assume anything you want. Let me explain more fully.

    I am not Word of Faith, by the way. But I am a woman of faith. I believe much of what Word of Faith teaches, except on this one old issue, that I think most of them have corrected. (Name it and claim it.)

    1 John 3:22 is true in that it comes out of a true relationship with God where we "abide" with Him. John is a great author on this subject, both in his gospel and his epistle. All together we can see this fully, especially if you use the right Greek word, for "Word." There are two words for our English "word." Logos - the whole word of God (the Bible), and Rhema - the spoken word we hear.

    John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and my Words/Rhemas abide in you, you shall ask what you want and it shall be given to you."

    John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice (through Rhemas), and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    1 John 3:22 "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight."

    John 14:15-17 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

    1 John 5:14-15 "Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

    This tells us that through His Spirit in us, we keep Christ's commands, we love Him, and our relationship with him (abiding) allows us to hear His voice (Rhema). When you hear God's voice and He tells you what to pray, you KNOW it is God's will, and you REPEAT the prayer God just gave you out of the Rhema, it comes to pass immediately.

    Therefore, to test yourself on whether you are a Christian, are your prayers answered as above? Can you actually hear God's voice?
     
  18. nonaeroterraqueous

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    I've run the gamut of denominations over the years. Frankly, I don't agree with your sentiment in the slightest.

    Of course, this begs the question as to whether you are sanctified and whether you have ever willfully sinned.

    What you may also not realize is that your claims about the Reformed contradict this point. You say that their doctrines lead people to sin, but the Reformed have, in fact, accepted Christ as their savior. Some of us can even point to a definite point in time when we were baptized by the Holy Spirit.

    You condemn in certain terms the belief that we are imperfect in this regard, because you say that this belief causes us to sin. Yet, you say that the Spirit keeps us (perfectly) from sinning. The only reconciliation is that a person loses the Holy Spirit by thinking himself imperfect. I find that rather odd, because I know people to lose the Spirit for the exact opposite, by thinking themselves perfect.
     
  19. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm finished with this conversation with you and am ending my part in it here.

    Once again, instead of the testing of Spirits laid out by John, your questioning my relationship with God/The Holy Spirit as an appeal to authority and it's not how to test the Spirit or determine by what authority I am under.

    In the end, I have tried sharing scripture with you and my words summarily rejected so i will agree to disagree with you and move on..
     
  20. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I thought we were speaking of what I meant by the interpretation of scripture. I certainly didn't imply any of the falsehoods you interject. I didn't write the scriptures. If you don't agree with John, then that has nothing to do with me.

    John's testing of spirits had to do with our belief in Jesus. John was addressing the Gnostics who did not believe Jesus came in the flesh. If you believe some other test then spit it out. I'm shocked as to how you took John's scriptures so personally. You know whether the implications are in reference to yourself. I don't, so don't blame me if they were right on the money.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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