Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[GodsGrace101]

We may have to reject what we have believed and been taught. And for some, that is a lifetime of deception. It is a tough pill to swallow.

YOU also would have to reject what you have believed and been taught! No difference.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What the loss of salvation crowd don't believe is that Jesus' sheep (who have been given eternal life per John 10:28) cannot perish.

They believe that Jesus' sheep, IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to His words, can perish.

No FG,
You're right...Jesus' sheep CANNOT perish.
100% right on this.

We just have to make sure to be Jesus' sheep...
That's all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You know GR8, the idea of eternal security was not present when the gospels and letters were written. If it was, the writers would have been much more careful in their wording.

I can't believe how silly this claim is.

I'm going to prove eternal security to you with a color coded rendition of John 10:28. Let's see you unpack it.

Jesus teaches the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing (having) eternal life:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The red words represent the CAUSE of having (possessing) eternal life.

The blue words represent the EFFECT of having (possessing) eternal life.

I hope you're not color blind. I thought JLB was, but then he started using red colors in some words, so I know he recognizes at least black, white, and red.

Now, please prove that Jesus wasn't teaching about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

It's only recently that this idea of eternal security has come about.

It's been around for as long as God has been communicating with mankind.

Let's take John 10:28, for example:
28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Did Jesus ever lie? No. So how do we get eternal security from the above? Because Jesus said that He gives eternal life to THEM and THEY will never perish. This is true of course.

So who are the THEM and the THEY?

Believers. Because Jesus taught in John 5:24 and 6:47 that whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life.

HIS SHEEP.

Yep. Believers. We know that from John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Do you understand this metaphor about the gate and enters through the gate?

Of course, Jesus' sheep will NEVER PERISH! Jesus is the life,,,,if we are IN JESUS we have eternal life, but if we are NOT in Jesus, we do not have eternal life.

So, now all you've got to do is prove your theory that a sealed IN HIM believer (eph 1:13,14) can be unsealed.

I'll get the popcorn!!

We must make sure to be Jesus' sheep at the time of our death or we will not be saved.

Actually, from the MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13) and Jesus said they shall never, no, not ever, perish.

John 10:26-20

26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

verse 26: Those who do not believe are not of Jesus' sheep.
It doesn't matter if we don't believe BEFORE being saved or AFTER being saved....if there is no belief, we are NOT one of Jesus' sheep.

Your theory needs proof from Scripture. Where is it?

Verse 27: The saved HEAR Jesus' voice, they KNOW Jesus and they FOLLOW Him. If one abandons God do you suppose they still hear the voice of Jesus?

Verse 28: Jesus gives eternal life to THEM....His sheep.
If a person is NOT one of His sheep, he does not have eternal life.

Verse 29: God has given the saved to Christ by His salvation economy and to those that choose to be saved by following Jesus, through whom salvation comes. Nothing can take a saved person away from God...except that person himself.

Verse 30: Jesus and God share the same nature.

I will be waiting (with popcorn) for your proof from Scripture that support your opinions.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Anybody?


Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved, just or unjust, sinner or saint?



JLB

I answered this above in a post to you.
A sheep that wanders away is in a dangerous position and if it does not return to the shepherd, it WILL die.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No FG,
You're right...Jesus' sheep CANNOT perish.
100% right on this.

We just have to make sure to be Jesus' sheep...
That's all.

Why do you persist in believing that one of Jesus' sheep can become "NOT one of His sheep"? What Scripture says this? None.

Your opinions show that you either don't believe or don't understand Eph 1:13,14.

Which do you think it is?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I answered this above in a post to you.
A sheep that wanders away is in a dangerous position and if it does not return to the shepherd, it WILL die.

Many believers have and will die physically the "sin unto death" (1 John 5:16) for disobedience. The Bible has many examples: 1 Cor 5:5, 10, 11:30, Acts 5.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I said:
"Hi there, GG101.

It amazes me how some are so resistant to knowing what the original language actually says."

Because it's the original language that was inspired. Not any of the many translations.


Irrelevant because we have lexicons to KNOW what the original word means.


Really? Just what the Holy Spirit actually inspired the writers to write.


No, there are many who fail to properly exegete and come up with wildly unbiblical ideas.


From the original languages.


And we have knowledge of what the 1st Century Greek meant.


And I do.


Do you believe what He said about recipients in Johbn 10:28?


So do I.


No. I got rather tired of the ridiculous amount of political correctness on the other site.

Well FG, YOU could be one of those that are not exegeting properly since the idea of eternal security wasn't even around in the first century.

God inspired the writers, not the language.

Lexicons...They never have changed my mind YET.

I've explained John 10:28 many times to you.
But I keep doing it for those reading along.

I've also posted some early church theologians to you but you tell me they're not inspired.

I guess Calvin, who came up with eternal security, was inspired?

Ignatius, A.D. 110 (He was taught by John the Apostle)
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)

Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)

Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130
We take earnest heed in these last days, for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing unless now, in this wicked time, we also withstand coming sources of danger, as befits the sons of God. (Letter of Barnabas 4)

Each person will receive as he has done. If he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him. If he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease as those who are the called ones, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince should acquire power over us and thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. Consider this all the more, brothers, when you reflect and see that after such great signs and wonders were done in Israel, they were abandoned. Let us beware, lest we be found as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen" [Matt. 22:14]. (Letter of Barnabas 4)



Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.

Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.

Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."

This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."


He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.

The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)

Justin, c. A.D. 155
If they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God, and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" [Ps. 32:2]. That is, he repents of his sins so that he may receive remission of them from God. It is not as you deceive yourselves, along with others who resemble you in this, and say that even though they are sinners, but know God, the Lord will not imput sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened because of his boasting, which was forgiven when he mourned and wept in the way it is written. If even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance and only when this great king, anointed one, and prophet mourned and conducted himself as it is written, then how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they do not weep, do not mourn, and do not repent, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute sin to them? (Dialogue with Trypho 141)


You see, FG, those who were close to Jesus and close to those who learned from those closest to Him, are not speaking of losing rewards, of crowns, of places of honor....They're speaking of losing salvation. What you believe regarding rewards and fellowship is also a modern idea.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why do you persist in believing that one of Jesus' sheep can become "NOT one of His sheep"? What Scripture says this? None.

Your opinions show that you either don't believe or don't understand Eph 1:13,14.

Which do you think it is?

Why do YOU persist in believing this cannot happen?
I've listed enough scripture...
I've listed statements from those who either knew Jesus or someone who knew those that learned from the Apostles.

You, OTOH, prefer to believe Mr. John Calvin.
I prefer to believe the bible.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I thought you knew about exegesis...
You don't take ONE verse or even more, that go against the general idea given in scripture. Vague verses do NOT take precedence over clear verses.

What does sealed mean? We can be sealed with the Holy Spirit...
We can be unsealed from the Holy Spirit due to all the verses I've listed above which prove eternal security is NOT correct or biblical.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit IN HIM..as it states.
If we are NOT IN HIM...we are no longer sealed.

The Holy Spirit is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a VIEW to our redemption.

And why do you accept the word BELIEVED above as meaning that one is saved due to belief...
When you DO NOT accept that the word BELIEVE in Luke 8:13 AND USED BY JESUS HIMSELF,,,does NOT mean that the person was saved FOR A WHILE?

Could you explain that please?

Many inconsistencies with the OSAS crowd.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Many believers have and will die physically the "sin unto death" (1 John 5:16) for disobedience. The Bible has many examples: 1 Cor 5:5, 10, 11:30, Acts 5.

What do you mean?
Those who do not obey will die?
What is the sin unto death? You know?
Not every theologian will state that he's sure what this means.
There are differing opinions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A sheep that wanders away is in danger:
1. Of becoming lost and dying of hunger and thirst.
2. Of falling and getting mortally hurt.
3. Of being killed by a wolf.

If WE become lost, we can die of hunger. Jesus said that HE is the bread of life, without Him we will die of hunger.
John 6:33-35
33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

We can fall away from God. When we do, we always get hurt, one way or another. God gave us His commandments to keep us safe.
Mathew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. "

We can die because of an unbelieving heart.
Hebrews 3:12-14
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

The death that these scriptures are referring to is a spiritual death. Not a physical death.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What do you mean?
Those who do not obey will die?
What is the sin unto death? You know?
Not every theologian will state that he's sure what this means.
There are differing opinions.

The death that is referred to in the bread of life discourse and pertaining to the wages of sin is a spiritual death. It cannot be a physical death otherwise those who are not written in the book of life should all be dead because God has already foreseen that they will fail. The Greek word used for die is
apothnḗskō which can mean die but can also mean to perish which seems to better fit the situation. Perish can mean to die or to suffer complete ruin or destruction. I think in this case it means to suffer complete ruin or destruction since the lake of fire is eternal suffering.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The death that these scriptures are referring to is a spiritual death. Not a physical death.

Absolutely.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The death that is referred to in the bread of life discourse and pertaining to the wages of sin is a spiritual death. It cannot be a physical death otherwise those who are not written in the book of life should all be dead because God has already foreseen that they will fail. The Greek word used for die is
apothnḗskō which can mean die but can also mean to perish which seems to better fit the situation. Perish can mean to die or to suffer complete ruin or destruction. I think in this case it means to suffer complete ruin or destruction since the lake of fire is eternal suffering.

I agree 100% with what you've posted...

What I don't know, and am not sure anybody really knows, is...
What is the sin unto death?
(FreeGrace2 brought it up)
1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leadingto death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

 

[Danthemailman]

I agree 100% with what you've posted...

What I don't know, and am not sure anybody really knows, is...
What is the sin unto death?
(FreeGrace2 brought it up)
1 John 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leadingto death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Some people quickly jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context:

1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[Danthemailman]

For a sheep to be lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.

JPT

Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

 

[GodsGrace101]

Some people quickly jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context:

1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Yes...it can't be certain sins because we know that we can be forgiven of all sins except one...the sin of blasphemy or denying the Holy Spirit (or attributing to Him the works of the evil one).

John does speak about sinning, and making a practice of sin.
Maybe the sin is the PRACTICE OF SIN...IOW, living a life of sin - which, to my understanding, is different than sinning. Maybe this sin leading to death is the practice of sin? (or a life of sin).

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes...it can't be certain sins because we know that we can be forgiven of all sins except one...the sin of blasphemy or denying the Holy Spirit (or attributing to Him the works of the evil one).

John does speak about sinning, and making a practice of sin. Maybe the sin is the PRACTICE OF SIN...IOW, living a life of sin - which, to my understanding, is different than sinning. Maybe this sin leading to death is the practice of sin? (or a life of sin).

The practice of sin certainly leads to "spiritual" death (Galatians 5:19-21). Yet in 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Gr8Grace]

YOU also would have to reject what you have believed and been taught! No difference.

I had to dump a lot of bad theology when I started studying the original language.

There are people who want The Truth.

And there are people who want their own 'truth.' Or are just to lazy to check it out for themselves.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The practice of sin certainly leads to "spiritual" death (Galatians 5:19-21). Yet in 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Back to square one!

 

[GodsGrace101]

I had to dump a lot of bad theology when I started studying the original language.

There are people who want The Truth.

And there are people who want their own 'truth.' Or are just to lazy to check it out for themselves.

I know someone who reads and speaks and taught Koine Greek, which just means simple Greek.

He won't read any bible not in the original language. He reads the O.T. in Hebrew and the N.T. in Greek.

I DO admire these persons - I wish I could do this. But I also believe the translations we have tell us all we need to know.
The person I'm telling you about does NOT believe in eternal security.

It would be interesting to know from you ONE belief that was changed by reading the original ... but I wouldn't ask. It's a lot to get into.

I don't believe what we accept as doctrine from the Word of God will save us or damn us...I do worry about persons reading along who don't understand and might think they could live how they wish to and that WOULD cause loss of salvation since God is a just God.