Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[Copperhead]

And the resurrection and catching up of the Old Testament saints will take place at the 7th vial which will come on the last 24 hours of time of the 70th week - the "last day" as Jesus put it.

Well, I am not quite there.

Matthew 27:52-53 has resurrected saints going on. Now, they can only be OT saints as the Church did not begin till 49 days later.

And several early Church writers who either knew the Apostles themselves or knew the Apostles' disciples held a general consensus that these resurrected saints were taken to heaven.

Yeshua pointed us to the harvest many times. I think He intended for us to study it. In Leviticus 23, the harvest procedure is outlined.

1) First Fruits are waved before the Lord at the Temple
2) The main harvest occurs
3) The corners of the fields are left for the gleaners to pick thru, not necessarily all at once like the harvest of (2).

Now, let's see how that applies to Yeshua, after all, the entirety of the scripture is written of Him.

While Yeshua is indeed the first fruits of the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20), He is not the first fruits of the harvest.

The first fruits of the harvest are taken by the High Priest to the Lord. Yeshua (our High Priest) took those OT saints who were resurrected in Matthew 27 to the Father, as per the early Church writers who expounded on this event.

Yeshua told Mary to not handle or touch Him (John 20:17) as He had not yet ascended to the Father. It was His job as our High Priest to take the first fruits of the harvest to the Father. He needed to remain ceremonially pure until that was accomplished.

The main harvest is at the resurrection and removal of the Church prior to or at the start of the GT.

The gleanings harvest will be those who come to faith in the GT period.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, I am not quite there.

Matthew 27:52-53 has resurrected saints going on. Now, they can only be OT saints as the Church did not begin till 49 days later.

And several early Church writers who either knew the Apostles themselves or knew the Apostles' disciples held a general consensus that these resurrected saints were taken to heaven.

Yeshua pointed us to the harvest many times. I think He intended for us to study it. In Leviticus 23, the harvest procedure is outlined.

1) First Fruits are waved before the Lord at the Temple
2) The main harvest occurs
3) The corners of the fields are left for the gleaners to pick thru, not necessarily all at once like the harvest of (2).

Now, let's see how that applies to Yeshua, after all, the entirety of the scripture is written of Him.

While Yeshua is indeed the first fruits of the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20), He is not the first fruits of the harvest.

The first fruits of the harvest are taken by the High Priest to the Lord. Yeshua (our High Priest) took those OT saints who were resurrected in Matthew 27 to the Father, as per the early Church writers who expounded on this event.

Yeshua told Mary to not handle or touch Him (John 20:17) as He had not yet ascended to the Father. It was His job as our High Priest to take the first fruits of the harvest to the Father. He needed to remain ceremonially pure until that was accomplished.

The main harvest is at the resurrection and removal of the Church prior to or at the start of the GT.

The gleanings harvest will be those who come to faith in the GT period.

Several times in John 6 Jesus told them He would raise them up. I suspect He was speaking of the last 24 hours, not the "day of the Lord" last day.

I see the first harvest as you said of the elders of the Old Covenant (I believe the very same elders John saw in Rev. 4). Next would be the rapture of the church - pretrib, then the 144,000 - at or near the midpoint, then the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial that ends the week, and finally the 70th week saints who were beheaded.

 

[Copperhead]

Logical and pretty solid. I am in the camp that the Elders in Revelation 4-5 are the entirety of the church as it has been from Shavuot AD32 till now. After all, the Ekklesia (Church) is never mentioned again after Revelation 3 except in Revelation 22:16 when John writes his final thoughts to the readers of Revelation. I admit it is assumption on my part, but hard to rule out.

The OT saints were never part of the "Ekklesia of Yeshua". That doesn't mean they are redeemed any differently. All are redeemed thru trusting in the redemptive work of Yeshua. Likewise, the GT saints are not part of the Ekklesia. The Ekklesia specifically was the one who would rule and reign with a rod of iron along side Yeshua.

Actually, the GT saints have a privilege that the Ekklesia does not! I think it is their reward for coming to faith under such trying conditions.

Revelation 7:14-17 (NKJV) And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

As opposed to the 24 Elders who surround the throne of God, these GT saints actually are before the the throne and serve God directly. The Lamb shepherds them, and there is no mention that they rule and reign with Messiah like the Church / Elders do. These GT saints seem to get to "rub elbows" with God on a continual basis. What a loving, wonderful God we know!

Notice also the present tense. They "come" out of the GT as it is being described to John. And who is describing it, one of the 24 Elders. And we hit on that back in Revelation 4-5.

Some just have a difficult time separating these groups. But it will sure be fun to watch and experience and I wouldn't miss it for the world! That is going to be one great party.

The only sad thing, is that the Father does not get what He wanted. He ends up on the short end of the stick.....

2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[iamlamad]

Logical and pretty solid. I am in the camp that the Elders in Revelation 4-5 are the entirety of the church as it has been from Shavuot AD32 till now. After all, the Ekklesia (Church) is never mentioned again after Revelation 3 except in Revelation 22:16 when John writes his final thoughts to the readers of Revelation. I admit it is assumption on my part, but hard to rule out.

The OT saints were never part of the "Ekklesia of Yeshua". That doesn't mean they are redeemed any differently. All are redeemed thru trusting in the redemptive work of Yeshua. Likewise, the GT saints are not part of the Ekklesia. The Ekklesia specifically was the one who would rule and reign with a rod of iron along side Yeshua.

Actually, the GT saints have a privilege that the Ekklesia does not! I think it is their reward for coming to faith under such trying conditions.

Revelation 7:14-17 (NKJV) And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

As opposed to the 24 Elders who surround the throne of God, these GT saints actually are before the the throne and serve God directly. The Lamb shepherds them, and there is no mention that they rule and reign with Messiah like the Church / Elders do. These GT saints seem to get to "rub elbows" with God on a continual basis. What a loving, wonderful God we know!

Notice also the present tense. They "come" out of the GT as it is being described to John. And who is describing it, one of the 24 Elders. And we hit on that back in Revelation 4-5.

Some just have a difficult time separating these groups. But it will sure be fun to watch and experience and I wouldn't miss it for the world! That is going to be one great party.

The only sad thing, is that the Father does not get what He wanted. He ends up on the short end of the stick.....

2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Your theory is shaky simply because John saw those 24 elders in a vision of a time around 32 AD. For your theory to work, you have to pull them out of their 32 AD context.

 

[Copperhead]

Your theory is shaky simply because John saw those 24 elders in a vision of a time around 32 AD. For your theory to work, you have to pull them out of their 32 AD context.

Well, since John did not actually put a date on the writing we have to rely on what those who were close to him said he wrote it.

Irenaeous, a student of Polycarp (a disciple of John) said that John wrote the all of his writings while exiled to Patmos. Revelation in particular, in roughly 96AD.

Clement of Alexandria confirmed the assertion by Irenaeous. Eusibius supports Clement regarding who was leader of Rome who exiled John as being Domitian. And Domitian ruled in the late first century.

Internal evidence:

The chruch at Ephesus was not founded until later in Paul's ministry. Roughly 60 AD. So John mentioning Ephesus means the book was written after 60 AD. And probably much later as they had "left their first love" per Revelation 2:4.

There are many, many more substantive arguments for a late date of Revelation. Even more modern textual critics have had to late date Revelation.

Your theory could use a do over.

The Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father, who then gave it to an Angel, who then gave it to John. That is outlined at the start of The Revelation. John then says he was in exile on Patmos at the time he got it. See above.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, since John did not actually put a date on the writing we have to rely on what those who were close to him said he wrote it.

Irenaeous, a student of Polycarp (a disciple of John) said that John wrote the all of his writings while exiled to Patmos. Revelation in particular, in roughly 96AD.

Clement of Alexandria confirmed the assertion by Irenaeous. Eusibius supports Clement regarding who was leader of Rome who exiled John as being Domitian. And Domitian ruled in the late first century.

Internal evidence:

The chruch at Ephesus was not founded until later in Paul's ministry. Roughly 60 AD. So John mentioning Ephesus means the book was written after 60 AD. And probably much later as they had "left their first love" per Revelation 2:4.

There are many, many more substantive arguments for a late date of Revelation. Even more modern textual critics have had to late date Revelation.

Your theory could use a do over.

The Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father, who then gave it to an Angel, who then gave it to John. That is outlined at the start of The Revelation. John then says he was in exile on Patmos at the time he got it. See above.

I agree, Revelation was written around 95 AD. But that is NOT THE POINT. The point is, the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5.
Think about this:
John saw a throne room with NO JESUS in it - in 95 AD.
John watched a search for one worthy - that ended in failure: 95 AD!
The Holy Spirit was there in the throne room - in 95 AD - when Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit down as soon as He ascended (around 32 AD).

The answers are obvious: John was seeing in a vision the throne room of the past. It was a history lesson for John. God was showing Him a throne room without Jesus - to pinpoint the time to the 32 years Christ was on the earth.
Then when "no man was found" to a point in time before Christ rose from the dead to be found worthy. And the Holy Spirit still there shows us that IN THIS VISION Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

In chapter 5, TIME has moved on: Jesus rose from the dead and was immediately found worthy to take the book and open the seals. Then John got to see in this vision of the past - the very moment Jesus ascended back into the throne room.

So you missed the whole point! Go back and study - don't take my word for it.

Now, you may wonder, WHY would God do all this to pinpoint the time of the ascension? Of course for the CONTEXT of the first seals. Everyone wants to pull the seals out of this 32 AD context, so are miles off from the Author's intent.

 

[Copperhead]

I think that is reading a lot more in the text than what is there. Those kind of adventures can be fun, but very subjective at best. Not really a problem unless one tries to build a theology on them. It is always wiser to base a theological conclusion on more than one book, and even more so, using both NT and OT in conjunction with each other. After all, the scripture is very clear that nothing can be established outside of the testimony of two or more witnesses. We have those, the OT and the NT.

And Yeshua reaffirmed this standard when He dealt with the woman caught in adultery and the leadership wanted to stone her. After they departed, He asks where are her accusers. Since they had left, only Yeshua and the woman remained. He knew what she had done, but He is only one witness, so He did not condemn her in accordance with the Torah.

Now, if you could provide some proof texts for you assertion from other books of scripture, especially so from the OT, that would lend credibility to your assertion about John seeing the vision in 32AD. The Revelation is 404 verses with over 500 references to the OT alone. If you can locate a few verses in the OT that the seal events are outlined as starting after the ascension of Yeshua, I am sure it would help your case.

 

[iamlamad]

I think that is reading a lot more in the text than what is there. Those kind of adventures can be fun, but very subjective at best. Not really a problem unless one tries to build a theology on them. It is always wiser to base a theological conclusion on more than one book, and even more so, using both NT and OT in conjunction with each other. After all, the scripture is very clear that nothing can be established outside of the testimony of two or more witnesses. We have those, the OT and the NT.

And Yeshua reaffirmed this standard when He dealt with the woman caught in adultery and the leadership wanted to stone her. After they departed, He asks where are her accusers. Since they had left, only Yeshua and the woman remained. He knew what she had done, but He is only one witness, so He did not condemn her.

Now, if you could provide some proof texts for you assertion from other books of scripture, especially so from the OT, that would lend credibility to your assertion about John seeing the vision in 32AD. The Revelation is 404 verses with over 500 references to the OT alone. If you can locate a few verses in the OT that the seal events are outlined as starting after the ascension of Yeshua, I am sure it would help your case.

If you doubt what I write, then you will have to come up with different answers to these questions. WHY, for example, was Jesus not immediately seen beside the Father in the throne? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. In fact, Stephen SAW Him there.

Have you actually studied Rev. 5 where John saw Jesus suddenly appear into the throne room? What did John write: A Lamb having been slain. Jesus probably looked very rugged at that moment - bearing scars of His sacrifice. But don't believe me, believe what John wrote: As soon as Jesus arrived, the Holy Spirit was sent down. Ask yourself, WHEN? WHEN was the Holy Spirit to be sent down? AS soon as Jesus ascended, is the right answer - exactly as John wrote.
Believe me, for it is truth: we need to think "history lesson" to understand these two chapters.

God has given us FIVE witnesses:
1. Jesus NOT in the throne room
2. No man found in the search
3. The Holy Spirit still there in the throne room
4. Jesus suddenly appearing
5. The Holy Spirit sent down...

No, SIX!
6. In a later search Jesus WAS found worthy.

Truthfully, I cannot find 2000 years in any of these verses that come later. It is just not there. Therefore the timing of the first seal is 32 AD.

 

[Copperhead]

I already laid out the where's and whatfor's of who the 24 Elders are in a previous post using various passages form the NT and OT.

No, one passage in one book does not make 5 witnesses, or 6. Just one. The standard is the Tanakh (OT) and NT. The Holy Spirit confirmed this when He commended the Bereans for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. Paul was one witness, being an apostle, and the Tanakh was the other witness. After we had the canon of the NT, it became one of the two witnesses.

Again, I am open to seeing what is presented in the OT that provides support to the idea of the seal events as happening even in the 1st century, let alone starting as early as 32AD. There is ample support texts in the OT (and NT) that suggest that these events do not start till a much later date.

One of the big problems is the first seal itself and how it is interpreted.

Revelation 6:2 (NKJV) And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Many have supposed that the bow means this cat is some sort of military conquerer. Not quite. We must use the rest of scripture to interpret. The Law of First Mention hermeneutical principle applies.

The first mention of a bow in scripture is in Genesis, when the Lord places His bow in the sky as a sign of not destroying the world with a flood again. It is a covenant. Daniel 9:27 talks about a future power figure confirming the covenant with the people of Daniel, Israel, for seven years. The first seal shows a power figure that is conquering by assimilating power by treaty/agreement/covenant. Notice, there is no arrows mentioned. So there is no way to conclusively say that the bow means weapon or military power. But based on other passages of scripture, we can assume a covenant is in view. I am convinced also that Yeshua was alluding to this in John 5:43.

And the events here are also considered the "time of Jacob's Trouble" in Jeremiah 30, and that these are called labor pains and says that Israel would give birth at the start of those pains. Revelation 12 show Israel giving birth and the child being immediately harpazo (raptured) to the throne of God. Yeshua was never raptured at His birth, but the body of Messiah, the church, could be the child in view.

That leads back to the 24 Elders being referenced in Revelation 4 thru 5. David in 1 Chronicles 24 divides the priests into 24 divisions. Peter in 1 Peter 2:9 says that the believers are a royal priesthood. The Elders claim to be redeemed from the nations and state they are Kings and Priests (royal priesthood). It is reasonable to assume that the 24 Elders are the church that sits on thrones surrounding the throne of God. And they claim that they will rule and reign on the earth, just as the child is spoken of in Revelation 12 and also the Church in Revelation 2:26-29.

See how this works? To establish a theological position on a subject, one must use proof texts from other books, ideally, in both the OT and NT.

Truthfully, I cannot find 2000 years in any of these verses that come later. It is just not there. Therefore the timing of the first seal is 32 AD.

Well, Hosea gives us a clue in Hosea 5:15 - 6:2. It is a reference that Yeshua will return to His place until Israel acknowledges their offense, and in their affliction (see Jeremiah 30 again) they will realize their offense and call for His return. Yeshua affirms this in Matthew 23:39. Hosea then tells us this will be after 2 days, and Israel will be restored on the 3rd day. Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 (two witnesses again) claim that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years. so it is reasonable to assume the events we are discussing will not occur till 2000 years after Yeshua returned to the Father. Keeping with this pattern, the 3rd day of Hosea likely references the 1000 year millennial reign of the Messiah.

 

[iamlamad]

I already laid out the where's and whatfor's of who the 24 Elders are in a previous post using various passages form the NT and OT.

No, one passage in one book does not make 5 witnesses, or 6. Just one. The standard is the Tanakh (OT) and NT. The Holy Spirit confirmed this when He commended the Bereans for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. Paul was one witness, being an apostle, and the Tanakh was the other witness. After we had the canon of the NT, it became one of the two witnesses.

Again, I am open to seeing what is presented in the OT that provides support to the idea of the seal events as happening even in the 1st century, let alone starting as early as 32AD. There is ample support texts in the OT (and NT) that suggest that these events do not start till a much later date.

One of the big problems is the first seal itself and how it is interpreted.

Revelation 6:2 (NKJV) And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Many have supposed that the bow means this cat is some sort of military conquerer. Not quite. We must use the rest of scripture to interpret. The Law of First Mention hermeneutical principle applies.

The first mention of a bow in scripture is in Genesis, when the Lord places His bow in the sky as a sign of not destroying the world with a flood again. It is a covenant. Daniel 9:27 talks about a future power figure confirming the covenant with the people of Daniel, Israel, for seven years. The first seal shows a power figure that is conquering by assimilating power by treaty/agreement/covenant. Notice, there is no arrows mentioned. So there is no way to conclusively say that the bow means weapon or military power. But based on other passages of scripture, we can assume a covenant is in view. I am convinced also that Yeshua was alluding to this in John 5:43.

And the events here are also considered the "time of Jacob's Trouble" in Jeremiah 30, and that these are called labor pains and says that Israel would give birth at the start of those pains. Revelation 12 show Israel giving birth and the child being immediately harpazo (raptured) to the throne of God. Yeshua was never raptured at His birth, but the body of Messiah, the church, could be the child in view.

That leads back to the 24 Elders being referenced in Revelation 4 thru 5. David in 1 Chronicles 24 divides the priests into 24 divisions. Peter in 1 Peter 2:9 says that the believers are a royal priesthood. The Elders claim to be redeemed from the nations and state they are Kings and Priests (royal priesthood). It is reasonable to assume that the 24 Elders are the church that sits on thrones surrounding the throne of God. And they claim that they will rule and reign on the earth, just as the child is spoken of in Revelation 12 and also the Church in Revelation 2:26-29.

See how this works? To establish a theological position on a subject, one must use proof texts from other books, ideally, in both the OT and NT.




Well, Hosea gives us a clue in Hosea 5:15 - 6:2. It is a reference that Yeshua will return to His place until Israel acknowledges their offense, and in their affliction (see Jeremiah 30 again) they will realize their offense and call for His return. Yeshua affirms this in Matthew 23:39. Hosea then tells us this will be after 2 days, and Israel will be restored on the 3rd day. Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 (two witnesses again) claim that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years. so it is reasonable to assume the events we are discussing will not occur till 2000 years after Yeshua returned to the Father. Keeping with this pattern, the 3rd day of Hosea likely references the 1000 year millennial reign of the Messiah.

Anyone can guess some old testament verse fits a verse in the new, but that does not make it truth. The truth is, John did not give us even the slightest hint that the 24 elders are of the church. In fact, he makes it extremely difficult to assume they are of the church.

It seems you don't put much weigh on John's chronology, and the actual text of chapters 4 & 5. God is telling us a story that gives us TIMING and shows us the movement of time. And he pinpoints the exact time of Jesus first ascension into the throne room. I cannot ignore what John is telling us! It is a vision of the PAST For John - a "history lesson." All the facts laid out in these two chapters point to a time while Jesus was on the earth or under the earth, to the time He ascended.

Are we going to find these things in the Old Testament? We may find glimpses, but not timing. So we are down to two chapters: can we believe what they tell us without adding human reasoning? Human reasoning will almost always lead us astray!

I agree with you, the "two days" are 2000 years of church, and the "third day" will be the Millennial reign of Christ. But this does not answer the question: was God able...and did He insert some history in His book of the future?

I think (yes, only thinking) that God wanted us to know about the book in the Father's hand, but chose to show us the first time in the history of the world when someone worthy to take the book and break the seals, got that book into His hands. I believe this book is the lease document to earth. I also believe that Adam's 6000 year lease could have been extended forever, if no one had ever been found worthy to break those seals. This is why John was weeping: it seems he KNEW how important it was to get that book opened. As I see it, what we read in chapter 8 onward is what was written INSIDE that book. It could not be opened until all 7 seals were opened.

Jesus was caught up. Does harpazo always have to be violent and by force? I don't think so. I think that word could also fit the way Jesus was lifted up into the clouds. Some here disagree. I see those first 5 verses in chapter 12 as a parenthesis about Jesus' birth and not related to John's midpoint chronology. Every thing in it points to His birth, not the church. HE is to rule the world with a rod of Iron - that is scripture. And we know the story of How Satan tried to kill Jesus as a child, using King Herod.

Do you know the Greek word behind "bow?" It is toxon, from which we get our word toxic. It was named such because even then they put poison on their arrows. In the Greek Septuigint, that word is used over and over for the bow that shoots arrows. I know from timing along that this white horse and rider is to represent the church taking the gospel to the world. Yes, we have weapons, but our weapons are not physical. Is this why John did not see arrows? Did the church have to conquer and overcome? Most certainly the church had to conquer principalities every time the Gospel moved into a new territory.

Did you notice that John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - and every other time to represent righteousness? It goes without saying that the white horse represents righteous warfare. Since this seal was opened in 32 AD, as soon as Jesus ascended, the church was the ONLY righteous entity on earth.

John covers the 70th week of Daniel, from chapter 8 to chapter 16. It is not left out. If you wish to see another text, look in Matthew 24. Notice the words "the end is not yet." See how many verses are tied to that phrase. Jesus was speaking of church age events, NOT end time events. He did not arrive at end time events until verse 15. He jumped right over the first half of the week!

There: now you have another witness from another source. if you wish for three, the other gospels bear this out.

 

[Copperhead]

It seems you don't put much weigh on John's chronology, and the actual text of chapters 4 & 5. God is telling us a story that gives us TIMING and shows us the movement of time.

That would be a pretty good assumption. Without supporting text in the rest of scripture, I don't put much weight in your assertion.

Does harpazo always have to be violent and by force? I don't think so.

There are other words for ascending, rising, lifting, whatever. Harpazo throughout the text of the NT has a meaning of forcible snatching away. It is the same word in the Greek one would use if they were grabbing someone out of the street to keep them from being hit by an oncoming semi truck. Harpazo is a forcible snatching away.

Indeed, Revelation 12 is about Yeshua's birth, or rather His body the Church. Many OT passages support that assertion. The Woman of Revelation 12 is Israel, not Mary. So something more is in view here than Yeshua's physical birth on this earth. Jeremiah, Isaiah, and elsewhere support the assertion that the body of Messiah is being referenced here.

Do you know the Greek word behind "bow?" It is toxon, from which we get our word toxic.

Toxic is an adjective word from the 1600's French "toxique" which is derived from the Latin "toxicus" (poisoned), which is derived from the Greek Toxicon (pharmakon poison)

g5115. τόξον toxon; from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): — bow.

g5088. τίκτω tiktō; a strengthened form of a primary τέκω tekō (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literally or figuratively: — bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.
AV (19) - bring forth 9, be delivered 5, be born 3, be in travail 1, bear 1;
to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)of a woman giving birthof the earth bringing forth its fruitsmetaph. to bear, bring forth

A covenant is being brought forth and the false messiah is assimilating power. YHVH used the same meaning of "bow" in Greek in the Hebrew of Genesis 9:13 when He established the covenant with Noah and set His "bow" in the sky....

h7198. קֶשֶׁת qešeṯ; from 7185 in the original sense (of 6983) of bending: a bow, for shooting (hence, figuratively, strength) or the iris: — x arch(-er), + arrow, bow((-man, -shot)).

So the equivalent use of words and from the context of Genesis, we can see how the word was used initially by YHVH and thus applying the hermeneutical principle of "law of first mention", it is very allowable to assume that the 1st seal implies a covenant.

But, thanks for sharing. Your assertion hasn't made a dent in my position. Like I have stated before, none of this is a condition of salvation, so I am not worried a bit on how either of us view these things. I don't see them as you do an likely never will. All will be revealed at a future date and then we will know for sure.

 

[iamlamad]

That would be a pretty good assumption. Without supporting text in the rest of scripture, I don't put much weight in your assertion.



There are other words for ascending, rising, lifting, whatever. Harpazo throughout the text of the NT has a meaning of forcible snatching away. It is the same word in the Greek one would use if they were grabbing someone out of the street to keep them from being hit by an oncoming semi truck. Harpazo is a forcible snatching away.

Indeed, Revelation 12 is about Yeshua's birth, or rather His body the Church. Many OT passages support that assertion. The Woman of Revelation 12 is Israel, not Mary. So something more is in view here than Yeshua's physical birth on this earth. Jeremiah, Isaiah, and elsewhere support the assertion that the body of Messiah is being referenced here.


Toxic is an adjective word from the 1600's French "toxique" which is derived from the Latin "toxicus" (poisoned), which is derived from the Greek Toxicon (poison)

g5115. τόξον toxon; from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): — bow.

g5088. τίκτω tiktō; a strengthened form of a primary τέκω tekō (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literally or figuratively: — bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.
AV (19) - bring forth 9, be delivered 5, be born 3, be in travail 1, bear 1;
to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)of a woman giving birthof the earth bringing forth its fruitsmetaph. to bear, bring forth

A covenant is being brought forth and the false messiah is assimilating power. YHVH used the same meaning of "bow" in Greek in the Hebrew of Genesis 9:13 when He established the covenant with Noah and set His "bow" in the sky....

h7198. קֶשֶׁת qešeṯ; from 7185 in the original sense (of 6983) of bending: a bow, for shooting (hence, figuratively, strength) or the iris: — x arch(-er), + arrow, bow((-man, -shot)).

So the equivalent use of words and from the context of Genesis, we can see how the word was used initially by YHVH and thus applying the hermeneutical principle of "law of first mention", it is very allowable to assume that the 1st seal implies a covenant.

But, thanks for sharing. Your assertion hasn't made a dent in my position. Like I have stated before, none of this is a condition of salvation, so I am not worried a bit on how either of us view these things. I don't see them as you do an likely never will. All will be revealed at a future date and then we will know for sure.

What you are really saying is, you don't put much weight on what John wrote!
You are attempting to compare an English translation of a Hebrew word, for an English translation of a Greek word!

I personally think Mr Strong blew it with his theory of a bow of fabric! Fabric has nothing to do with a bow as a weapon. I agree the rain-bow in the sky comes from the idea of bending and the same Hebrew word was used for archery. And I will agree that that "bow" fits with toxon as in archery. But does that prove that the bow in the rider's hand is to represent a covenant? Perhaps it may hint of it, but certainly not prove it - especially when the context is conquering or overcoming. (The Greek word is translated as overcoming many more times) Conquering or overcoming takes weapons to be successful. Sorry, "covenant" does not fit the context!

Your "law of first mention" does not always follow through. Should it then be called a "law?" Is it scriptural? No, it is man's idea. What about the color white? In your theory John used the color white in Revelation 16 times to represent righteousness, and then once to represent some kind of evil! I find that humorous to the extreme. It is simply NOT the way the Holy Spirit wrote this book!

What do you think John was showing us in Rev 5:5-7. I see it as the very timing Jesus ascended, having just risen from the dead.

Can you come up with any other theory as to why John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4? Can you explain why Jesus was not found in that first search John watched - that ended in failure? Can you explain why John would show Jesus ascension in a book of the future? i am convinced God did not waste words - but every word is just the way He wanted it.

Agreed on the importance of the first seal. But then, if people get this wrong, usually they are mistaken on everything else in Revelation!

 

[Choose Wisely]

Your theory is shaky simply because John saw those 24 elders in a vision of a time around 32 AD. For your theory to work, you have to pull them out of their 32 AD context.

It's not his theory. He is merely proving a theory that already exists. I repeat.........proving.

 

[Choose Wisely]

If you doubt what I write, then you will have to come up with different answers to these questions. WHY, for example, was Jesus not immediately seen beside the Father in the throne? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. In fact, Stephen SAW Him there.

Have you actually studied Rev. 5 where John saw Jesus suddenly appear into the throne room? What did John write: A Lamb having been slain. Jesus probably looked very rugged at that moment - bearing scars of His sacrifice. But don't believe me, believe what John wrote: As soon as Jesus arrived, the Holy Spirit was sent down. Ask yourself, WHEN? WHEN was the Holy Spirit to be sent down? AS soon as Jesus ascended, is the right answer - exactly as John wrote.
Believe me, for it is truth: we need to think "history lesson" to understand these two chapters.

God has given us FIVE witnesses:
1. Jesus NOT in the throne room
2. No man found in the search
3. The Holy Spirit still there in the throne room
4. Jesus suddenly appearing
5. The Holy Spirit sent down...

No, SIX!
6. In a later search Jesus WAS found worthy.

Truthfully, I cannot find 2000 years in any of these verses that come later. It is just not there. Therefore the timing of the first seal is 32 AD.

Absolutely huge error on your part to believe that the WHITE horse is a good thing and all of the other horses are a bad thing. Just use common sense if nothing more.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The rapture Paul wrote of has nothing to do with the 144,000 that will be sealed. They are all descendants of Jacob. Most of the church today is made up of Gentiles.

I'm fully aware of that. The 144000 redeemed from the earth is a firstfruits harvest guaranteeing a future harvest. Since the 1st fruits are 12000 from each tribe, the harvest will be the 12 tribes scattered across the world. That is the rapture that you see in both Rev. 6 and Rev 14. The Gentiles will be raptured pretrib. The 12 tribes will be raptured pre wrath.

These verses in chapter 14 are EXTREMELY symbolic: God will not harvest people with a sickle! It is a picture of the harvest that will come at the end of the 70th week: both of the righteous and the unrighteous. And these verses have nothing to do with Paul's rapture.

I certainly understand that it is symbolic, but it is describing a rapture just the same. It is the rapture of the 12 tribes proven by the first fruits 144,000. If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins. The church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened.

If we look in chapter 7 at the huge crowd in the throne room, WHEN did they arrive? John did not see their arrival, but saw them already there. Note that this is the only time God said a number is so high it is too large to number. It will be all those who have died in Christ, generation after generation, from Christ's resurrection up to the time of the rapture: many many billions: too many to count. Not beyond God's ability, but He did not take the time. So John just wrote that the crowd was too large to number.

When did they arrive? We can see that in the coming of Jesus on the clouds in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14.

So if there are there in chapter 7, in the throne room, and they are the raptured church, WHEN were they raptured? Obviously, before chapter 7. I think Paul's description of the timeing of his rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal. So the rapture takes place, transporting all these believers in Christ up into the throne room, and John got to see them shortly after.

There are more than the raptured Church there. The Church will be raptured pretrib. This rapture spoken of in Rev 6 is a prewrath rapture...........also seen in Matt 24 and Rev 14. T

Meanwhile, in John's chronology, the 70th week will not begin until the 7th seal is opened. Therefore, Paul's gathering is pretrib. And therefore Christ will come TWICE more; first FOR His saints, and later, WITH His saints.

No, that not John's chronology, that's your chronology. He is coming pretrib secretly before any seals are opened. The opening of the seals starts the 70th week and in the midst of the week the sacrifice will be cut off and 1290 days later the abomination of desolation will be set. Then immediately after the tribulation of those days, He will come and all eyes will see Him and He will gather His elect from the 4 winds. Then to heaven for the marriage supper as the wrath of God rages on earth. Then we come on white horses.

When he comes pretrib, no one will know the time of His coming. In an hour that you think not the son of man comes. When he comes pre wrath believers are told to look up for your redemption draws nigh. The people raptured at this time will not be in darkness so they will know when the wrath of God is coming.They will see the signs of His coming. The man of sin will have been revealed and there will be signs in the sun moon and stars.

 

[Choose Wisely]

There will be a "coming" in chapter 6, as Paul's rapture takes place a moment before the 6th seal - but John did not see it and did not write of it. There is no "coming" in chapter 14. It is symbolic. He comes again the 3rd time as shown in Rev. 19. Your "coming" in chapter 14 is imaginary.

Please tell us your take on Rev. 14. I would call it the calm before the storm: the murder regime of the Beast and False prophet is about to begin.

You say there is no coming in Revelation 14, it's imaginary? Thanks for attempting but surely you can't believe that John imagined all those verses........for nothing?

What I've found is you can take any prophecy expert and throw Revelation 14 at them and all their expertise falls to pieces. They just don't have an answer.

The harvest in Revelation 14 is simply the great multitude of Rev 7. If you look in Revelation 6 you will see the wrath of God begins. If you look at the end of Revelation 14 you see the wrath of God begins.
Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

If you look at Matt 24 closely, it is not the return of Jesus to set up His kingdom. It is gathering, a harvest.

Rev 14
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24 is the gathering that occurs right before the day of the Lord. It is not the return of Christ, with us on white horses like most pretribbers think.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Revelation is not in order. If you think it is in order explain these verses.

***Rev 11***
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In summary, the gathering of Matthew 24 is just that....a gathering and not the return of Christ to set up his kingdom on earth. It is the gathering of Rev 14. It is the great multitude of Rev 7. All these are the same and are prior to the wrath of God...........after the tribulation.

 

[Copperhead]

He is coming pretrib secretly before any seals are opened.

CW, can I pick a little at this? I am in full agreement that this happens before the seals are open. I am not sure this removal will be all that secret. Paul seems to suggest that...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

I am convinced that it is going to be a wake up call to the world. Kinda like the 2 minute warning in Football. Folks may not have a grasp on what happened, but they sure are going to know something did.

I think that is why Satan has gone to some pretty great lengths to explain away the removal. Many of the UFO adherents and New Age channeler types have written extensively on how many people will be removed by UFO's because they are hindering mankind's advance. They even go so far to explain that children will be removed. While I don't subscribe to these idiot's writings, I find it interesting that Satan even explains away children. Could it be that the Lord feels that children have not yet reached a point of accountability for sin and therefore He takes them along when the Church is removed? Who knows but it sure is interesting nonetheless.

This video is not very long, but it goes into some pretty good detail and outlines and documents what some of these kooks have written about the removal / rapture. Eastman makes a pretty good observation.... these folks have done a lot of work explaining away a pre-trib rapture, but have not wasted any time on a post trib rapture. A couple of places will bring out a chuckle when you hear it.

 

[Choose Wisely]

CW, can I pick a little at this? I am in full agreement that this happens before the seals are open. I am not sure this removal will be all that secret. Paul seems to suggest that...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

I am convinced that it is going to be a wake up call to the world. Kinda like the 2 minute warning in Football. Folks may not have a grasp on what happened, but they sure are going to know something did.

I think that is why Satan has gone to some pretty great lengths to explain away the removal. Many of the UFO adherents and New Age channeler types have written extensively on how many people will be removed by UFO's because they are hindering mankind's advance. They even go so far to explain that children will be removed. While I don't subscribe to these idiot's writings, I find it interesting that Satan even explains away children. Could it be that the Lord feels that children have not yet reached a point of accountability for sin and therefore He takes them along when the Church is removed? Who knows but it sure is interesting nonetheless.

This video is not very long, but it goes into some pretty good detail and outlines and documents what some of these kooks have written about the removal / rapture. Eastman makes a pretty good observation.... these folks have done a lot of work explaining away a pre-trib rapture, but have not wasted any time on a post trib rapture. A couple of places will bring out a chuckle when you hear it.

I think the shout, voice and trumpet of God are all heard in heaven.
Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

When the pretribulation rapture occurs it will be a secret rapture. The world won't see or hear the Messiah. Only those that He has come for will see or hear Him. I believe the voice of the turtle will be in the land.

 

[Copperhead]

Interesting passage CW. Never noticed it in this context before. Will have to study that out. You may have hit upon something there. Thanks for pointing that portion of scripture out.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Interesting passage CW. Never noticed it in this context before. Will have to study that out. You may have hit upon something there. Thanks for pointing that portion of scripture out.

Also notice that winter is past and the flowers appear and the time of the singing birds has come. This points to an early summer harvest. And remember that Jesus says summer is near.

Pentecost is an early summer harvest feast. Everyone thinks that Pentecost has been fulfilled because the Holy Spirit was given to the Church on Pentecost. Well Pentecost has not been fulfilled because there has been no harvest. Pentecost is an early summer harvest feast. It is very likely that the pretribulation rapture will occur on Pentecost. (Not the Christian Pentecost date that has been changed by the Catholic Church, but the Jewish Pentecost date). The 12 tribes scattered across the world will gain understanding of what has happened (from the 144,000) and become jealous when they realize they are in the 70th week of Daniel. They will understand that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and that is when the Messiah is coming for them, at the end of the 7 years. That day will not take them like a thief because they won't be in darkness. (Matthew 24, Rev 14) The remnant will be in the nation of Israel and will flee to Petra during the wrath of God.