Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[iamlamad]

T.i.m.o.t.h.y. said:

iamlamad said:
3. Jesus NOT FOUND WORTHY to open the book in the first search John watched. This shows us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead.

Where does it say that Jesus was ever not found worthy to be the one to open the scroll? At the time of the opening of the scroll Jesus would have to have been there for how could John (not in heaven by death) be there in heaven without Jesus having been raised from the dead? How could the Holy Spirit be sent to the earth with Jesus not yet raised from the dead?

5:4 And I wept much, because NO MAN WAS FOUND worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Jesus was not found worthy to take the book in the first search, simply because at that time Jesus had not yet prevailed over death. Shortly after He rose from the dead (after John cried much) THEN Jesus was found worthy to take the book and open the seals.

You have your events confused.
The text you seem to be referring to is relating that where John was at the time in heaven, that he could not see Jesus among what must of been a great gathering in the throne room. Crowds like that can hide others. Jesus apparently was mingling at the time when John scanned the room. It's similar to the best man at the wedding of his best friend suddenly can't see the bridegroom at the time when he's supposed to take his place for the wedding vows. John's panic was uncalled for because Jesus was simply among the crowd gathered to see the much awaited occaision finally proceed.

John showed himself to be much concerned at the time. We never heard of John crying about anything during his discipleship with Jesus. He was once known as one of the sons of thunder. You don't get that nickname by being a crybaby.

"Jesus was mingling..." You forget that this was the Revealing of Jesus Christ! It is HIS BOOK! God had a very specific reason to show the throne room with Jesus NOT seen. He was showing us TIMING. This was a vision from John's past, looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on earth. This was all to show us WHEN Jesus opened the first seals: it was only minutes after He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

I hope you will try and answer those three questions Jesus asked me. I put them in a previous post.

"what must of been a great gathering " On the contrary, this was before Christ rose from the dead (not in reality but in the time shown in the vision) so perhaps Enoch and Elijah were the only humans in heaven at that time. Jesus did not ascend until verse 5:6. The wedding will not take place for another 2000 years or so.

"John's panic was uncalled for " You don't understand. Somehow John KNEW how important it was to get the seals off that book so the book could be opened. Perhaps he knew that unless someone could be found worthy to open those seals and get the book opened, Satan would remain the god of this world FOREVER. I can understand why John wept.

"Jesus was simply among the crowd " No, Jesus was under the earth and had not at that moment risen from the dead. He rose from the dead between verses 5:4 and 5:5. He then "prevailed" over death to become the REDEEMER of mankind.

Because Jesus chose to begin this vision while the book was still on the Father's hand, and since Jesus took the book and began opening seals as soon as He ascended, somehow God had to show that timing in this vision. He CHOSE to show a throne room with Jesus not seen, the Holy Spirit still there (showing that Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down (All this happened in chapter 5), and a search for one worthy that ended in failure. No man was found in that first search. All this together shows us of a time before Christ rose from the dead.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:
4. JOHN WEPT MUCH. Why much? He wept until Jesus prevailed over death and then became worthy to open the book.

Unless John was dead, and not until Jesus was resurrected from the dead could anyone go be in heaven. The OT saints never got to go up to heaven at death but always went to paradise - a pleasant place in the upper region of Sheol. It was only at Jesus resurrection that the way to heaven for the dead was opened.

True, but this vision was being watched by John around 95 AD. A vision can be of the past, present or future, or all of them in one vision. The facts of what John saw shows us this is a vision out of John's past, first a time before Christ rose from the dead, then when Jesus rose from the dead, then the ascension and John seeing Jesus enter the throne room, having been absent for 32 or so years, to Jesus sending down the Holy Spirit and finally, Jesus taking the book from the Father and beginning, right then (around AD 32) opening the first seals.

iamlamad said:
The next thing John saw in the vision was Jesus suddenly entering the throne room where He had been gone for 32 or so years.

Right. It's a vision that John had while he was exiled on the isle of Patmos. How many years would that be after Jesus ascended to heaven as recorded in Acts 1.. and after 10 days was the day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit poured out on all the 120 in that upper room, as Acts 2:33 says, "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you now see and hear."

At that time, John was with the 120 on earth on that day of Pentecost. John could not have been in heaven to see Jesus from earth, enter into the throne room.

I would guess it was around 60 years after Jesus rose from the dead, when John saw this vision. However, it we examine the vision itself, we an see that the time inside the vision was around AD 32, first a time before Christ rose from the dead, to WHEN He rose from the dead, to when He ascended, entered the throne room and sent the Holy Spirit down. Yes, john DID see Jesus enter the throne room, but it was IN A VISION out of John's past.

iamlamad said:
He ascended after sending Mary away, entered the throne room, sent down the Holy Spirit, and took the BOOK from the Father. WHEN? Around AD 32.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

No one can find 2000 years there, for that was not the intent of the Author. Jesus opened that first seal around AD 32—the very time He sent out the church with the gospel.

When Jesus sent Mary away it was more than 50 days before Pentecost. When John was by vision in heaven Jesus approached the throne to take the scroll from God.. in earth time it was the time that John was on the isle of Patmos. There are [?] years between the two events that you attempt to put within the same timeframe.

That is easily explained. John saw a vision around 95 AD. But the vision itself was of a time 60 some years previous. A time before Christ rose from the dead. While He was under the earth, was He in heaven at the same time? No! He gave up his Godly attribute of being everywhere at once when He took on human flesh.

After He rose from the dead, and was telling Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended, was this just before He ascended? I am certain it was. As soon as Jesus sent Mary away, He ascended and John (IN THE VISION) saw the moment He entered the throne room.

In other words, there are TWO timeframes we are discussing: first 95 AD when John saw the vision, and second, the time being shown IN the vision.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said: The FIRST SEAL: represents the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

The listing of the 1-6 seals are detailed by me above. There's no mention of the Church sent out with the gospel. The first seal is when the son of perdition comes on the scene.

This is your theory, but it does not fit the text. You are thinking future, when Jesus and John were thinking AD 32 when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down and got the book into His hands. That happened way back when Jesus ascended. (See chapters 4 and 5) Perhaps you are not thinking that the first readers of this book read it nearly 2000 years ago. It had to have some meaning to them.

The advance of the gospel or the prevention thereof is not mentioned in any of the seals.

It is not mentioned word for word, but it is surely mentioned. When the rider on the white horse when out conquering and to conquer, the Greek word for conquer was in EVERY OTHER PLACE translated as overcoming. When we leave this first seal in its AD 32 context, way back when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, and the church was sent out, did the church have to "overcome" to take the gospel to new places? Certainly MUCH overcoming was needed for they had to overcome principalities and powers in high places. This first seal was opened as soon as Jesus took the book, and that was moments after He ascended. Your theory is 2000 years off from the text.

These three horsemen, the RED horse and rider, the BLACK horse and rider, and the PALE horse and rider were LIMITED in their theater of operations to only one fourth of the surface of the earth, probably Europe, the Middle East and Africa—the very places where two world wars were fought, where famines have been common, and where the black plague hit again and again.

The same general geographic locations where the empires of Nebochadnezzar's dream occurred.

I don't know how to delete this.

If we examine the pale horse and rider, we read that power was given unto THEM..."to kill with the sword..."
The rider on the red horse was given the sword.
"to kill with hunger..." the black horse and rider were to bring famine.
"To kill with death..." the pale horse and rider were titled "death."

This shows us that these three riders ride together, leaving the white horse and rider out of their mix. Next, John shows us that God LIMITED their theater of operation to only one fourth of the earth. That one forth would probably be centered on Jerusalem, since that is where to gospel began. That could include Europe, the Middle East and Africa (about a one fourth slice) — the very places where TWO world wars were fought, and countless other wars and skirmishes. It is where the black plague hit again and again. It is where famine after famine has come. Jesus told us that the church age ("the end is not yet") would include wars, famines and pestilences. John shows us the same thing: God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, and pestilences to try and stop the advance of the gospel. God said GO, so the devil has been trying to stop the church (and the advance of the gospel) ever since.

I believe this is very close to the intent of these scriptures.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:
Seal 5 was opened in time for Stephen's murder,

A correct way to state it would be that Stephen in heaven was among the many persecuted martyrs from the OT (from Abel to John the Baptist) and those of the NT (all the apostles except John). The 5th seal during the time of the Tribulation dealing with the martyrs did not open for Stephan as you put it, because Stephan's death happened in the early days of the apostles, before Saul of Tarsus became the apostle Paul.

The way that you express things tangles up timeframes when two or more events actually happen.

You seem to forget that John was watching a VISION. A vision can portray any time, past, present of future or even all of them mixed up. One man told me, "of course all the seals are opened. How would we know what happens with each one unless it is already opened." He was ignoring the fact that John was watching a VISION of the seals being opened. If we study the vision, we will discover that Jesus has already opened seals one through five.

Please understand, God began this vision before Christ rose from the dead, up to WHEN Christ rose from the dead, to when Christ ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, and finally to Jesus taking the book and beginning to open the seals. I believe He opened the first five seals very soon after He ascended. The first seal was opened around AD 32, or so. It can therefore represent ONLY the church and the gospel. It was right close to when Jesus gave the great commission: GO. The church was sent out into the devil's world. OF COUSE the devil would try to stop the advance of the gospel. He could NOT stop what had already happened in Jerusalem. If we study Acts and the life of Paul, we KNOW the devil tried and tried and tried to stop Him. But demons were sent to buffet Paul, trying to knock him out of his preaching.

Since the gospel was commanded to be taken to new places, controlled by principalities and powers, MARTYRS were murdered, as the gospel advanced. Therefore, it is just common sense that the 5th seal was opened when Stephen was murdered.

When people ignore the timing shown in chapters 4 & 5, which shows us Jesus on the earth and under the earth, then Jesus raising from the dead, then ascending, then sending the Holy Spirit down, then taking the book, and just imagine it is all future, their error in chapter 6 will cause them to error for much of the book. We are now STILL at seal 5 waiting for that final martyr to be killed, which means the END of the church age, which means the RAPTURE. The rapture must come AFTER that final martyr, at seal 5, and BEFORE seal 6 is opened to begin the Day of the Lord.

"tangles up timeframes" There are two timeframes being discussed, but they are very different: one is 95 AD when John was seeing a vision, and the second is the timing being shown IN the vision.

"Stephan's death happened in the early days of the apostles"
Yes, of course it did. But where you miss it is that at the 5th seal, John and the Holy Spirit are at the time of Stephens murder IN THE VISION. You have pulled that seal (and the first four seals) OUT of their AD 32 context.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:
Seal 5 was opened in time for Stephen's murder,

A correct way to state it would be that Stephen in heaven was among the many persecuted martyrs from the OT (from Abel to John the Baptist) and those of the NT (all the apostles except John). The 5th seal during the time of the Tribulation dealing with the martyrs did not open for Stephan as you put it, because Stephan's death happened in the early days of the apostles, before Saul of Tarsus became the apostle Paul.

The way that you express things tangles up timeframes when two or more events actually happen.

You seem to forget that John was watching a VISION. A vision can portray any time, past, present of future or even all of them mixed up. One man told me, "of course all the seals are opened. How would we know what happens with each one unless it is already opened." He was ignoring the fact that John was watching a VISION of the seals being opened. If we study the vision, we will discover that Jesus has already opened seals one through five.

Please understand, God began this vision before Christ rose from the dead, up to WHEN Christ rose from the dead, to when Christ ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, and finally to Jesus taking the book and beginning to open the seals. I believe He opened the first five seals very soon after He ascended. The first seal was opened around AD 32, or so. It can therefore represent ONLY the church and the gospel. It was right close to when Jesus gave the great commission: GO. The church was sent out into the devil's world. OF COUSE the devil would try to stop the advance of the gospel. He could NOT stop what had already happened in Jerusalem. If we study Acts and the life of Paul, we KNOW the devil tried and tried and tried to stop Him. But demons were sent to buffet Paul, trying to knock him out of his preaching.

Since the gospel was commanded to be taken to new places, controlled by principalities and powers, MARTYRS were murdered, as the gospel advanced. Therefore, it is just common sense that the 5th seal was opened when Stephen was murdered.

When people ignore the timing shown in chapters 4 & 5, which shows us Jesus on the earth and under the earth, then Jesus raising from the dead, then ascending, then sending the Holy Spirit down, then taking the book, and just imagine it is all future, their error in chapter 6 will cause them to error for much of the book. We are now STILL at seal 5 waiting for that final martyr to be killed, which means the END of the church age, which means the RAPTURE. The rapture must come AFTER that final martyr, at seal 5, and BEFORE seal 6 is opened to begin the Day of the Lord.

"tangles up timeframes" There are two timeframes being discussed, but they are very different: one is 95 AD when John was seeing a vision, and the second is the timing being shown IN the vision.

"Stephan's death happened in the early days of the apostles"
Yes, of course it did. But where you miss it is that at the 5th seal, John and the Holy Spirit are at the time of Stephens murder IN THE VISION. You have pulled that seal (and the first four seals) OUT of their



Duplicate post. Why? I don't know.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:
becoming one of the first murders and martyrs of the church age. They were crying out wondering how long they would have to wait for judgment to begin when their murders would be judged. In short, they were told they would have to wait for the FINAL MARTYR to be killed as they all were killed, in the same category, as church age martyrs.

Those seen within the vision of John concerning the 7yr Tribulation did not include the Church age. Even as John himself was not included with them.

You are simply mistaken, because you have ignored the context of the seals, which is chapters 4 and 5.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, HATH PREVAILED to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

In verse 5, what did Jesus prevail over? He prevailed over DEATH. The very fact that Jesus was NOT FOUND worthy earlier in the first search shows us TIMING and the MOVEMENT OF TIME. While John wept much, Jesus rose from the dead.

Finally, WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down? That event was around AD 32. This is God's PURPOSE in chapters 3 and 5, to set the TIMING of the first seals. There can be no way around this truth: Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals, AS SOON AS HE ASCENDED. People ignore the message of chapters 4 & 5, read about the first seal, and imagine it is something in our future! They are 2000 years OFF from the truth of scripture.

The 7 year tribulation will not begin in Revelation until the 7th seal in Chapter 8.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:
In short, they will have to wait for the pre-tribulation rapture to END the church age, so judgment can begin. Therefore the rapture of the church must come AFTER the 5th seal.

The 6th seal begins the wrath of God, so the rapture must come BEFORE the 6th seal.

The rapture of the Church IS before the 7yr Tribulation begins as you stated. Therefore the rapture of the Church cannot and does not also happen AFTER the 5th seal.

Due to the many timing errors that you have made, your attempt at clearing things up has resulted in showing that what you call clear, isn't. Rather than continuing with more of the same from you I am ending my part of this discussion.

Yes, this is perhaps the only point we agree on, the pre-trib rapture. Where you miss it is you imagine the "tribulation" will begin at the first seal. I have made post after post showing you with scripture that the first seal is the gospel sent out into the devil's world.
Therefore, my friend, I suggest that the timing errors are all on your side of this argument. Please don't give up! Perhaps we are getting somewhere. At least we are leaving posts that may help others.

 

[iamlamad]

That post 1,189 to iamlamad, was done in one sitting that took too long to finish which did havoc on my back and general physical condition so my decision to discontinue the discussion was said with aches and emotional crankiness. I apologize for any offense.

Brother in Christ, you could not possibly offend me! Perhaps you should learn to make shorter posts.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

Brother in Christ, you could not possibly offend me! Perhaps you should learn to make shorter posts.

You've posted these additional several posts to me, which are reiterations of the same exact wordings that I've already replied to. That takes it out of the discussion for fellowship rules and getting into a debate.. which is against the rules.

Perhaps you should look for someone else to discuss with or take it to a debate thread.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

I wouldn't usually compose anything so long as this but I felt that it was important to give enough details on this.

So, I had occasion to read Revelation today while looking for the phrase "spirit of prophecy" so I was reading chapters 1,4 again.

Verse 4: around the throne were 24 elders.
Verse 7: there were four beasts. The first was like a lion.

Jesus is called "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah". There are many pictures of a lion that Christians use to depict Jesus.

Verse 7: The second beast is like a calf.

Jesus is the sacrifice for sins.

Verse 7: The third beast had a face as a man.

In Rev.1:13 John described Jesus, "..is one like unto the Son of man".

Verse 7: The fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

The Bible in certain verses uses an eagle in metaphor to depict overcoming, or an overcomer. Rev.3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Verse 8: "The four beasts, day and night, say "Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty, which was, which is, and which is to come." In Rev.1:8 Jesus said, "I am Alpha [Hebrew: Alef] and Omega [Hebrew: Tov], The beginning and the ending (the A to Z).. saith the Lord, Which is, which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

That would be Jesus. He said in Rev.1:18 "I am he that liveth, I was dead; and behold, I am alive forever."

Verse 9: The four beasts gave honor and glory "to him that sat on the throne."

Jesus was there in heaven, sitting on his throne, being worshiped.
Verse 10: The 24 elders fell down and worshiped him.

Verse 11: They said "You are worthy o Lord to receive glory, honor and power. For you created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created." Colos.1:16, and John 1:3 (plus others) confirms it.

So again, they are speaking to Jesus on the throne. John stood there and watched the whole thing.

Chapt 5:1 "I (John) saw in the hand of him that sat on the throne a scroll written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."

Verse 2: John saw a strong angel proclaim with a loud voice "Who is worthy to open the scroll, and to loose the seals thereof?"

Has everyone got the picture of what is going on here?

So regardless that John saw and heard the four beasts and the 24 elders worshiping Jesus, saying that He Is Worthy.

Just because the angel spoke in royal formality.. John somehow forgot all about Jesus being called worthy and supposed that someone else might be more worthy to open the seals of the all important scroll.

So, John got all worked up in supposing that the proceedings can't proceed until the worthy one is found.

Verse 3: "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

To IamLamad- That means that John is saying, as he wrongly thought it to be, that there wasn't anyone in heaven.. That didn't mean that Jesus wasn't in heaven, nor wasn't sitting on the throne, holding the scroll at that moment.

John is in writing the events that earlier occurred in the vision, honestly admitting his own lapse of thought in not keeping track of events and what they meant.

John also included that there wasn't anyone in earth who was worthy. Well, that's true. What's more true is that the worthy one was not on earth at that moment but in heaven, sitting on his throne, holding the scroll. Probably doing a face palm because John had forgotten who the four beasts, and the 24 elders worshiped as worthy to open the scroll. (there certainly was no one under the earth that was worthy, but John was just being thorough).
The moments for John were so intense in his mistaken thinking that he got weepy-eyed about it. Wow, sounds like a mistake that anyone could make while reading the text.

Well, John led everyone into thinking as he did of those readers who were not paying attention to the actual events that he clearly described.

Verse 5: One of the elders finally had pity on poor mistaken John to get him back on track, (with a sweeping arm the elder pointed directly at Jesus sitting on the throne, holding the scroll) "The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose the seven seals thereof."

Verse 6: "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Nice recovery, John.

Verse 7: "And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

Both 6-7 can be understood to mean that Jesus upon being pointed out, had handed the scroll to God the Father, left his throne to stand in the midst of those who'd worshiped him.. then returned to the Father to take again the scroll that he'd been stated to be holding through Chapt.5:1-5.

Again, according to verses in chapt4 Jesus had been in heaven and 5:3.. Jesus had not been in earth during the events described.

I end my post here.

I request of you Lamad, that you not reply with reiterations. And, perhaps you could keep your reply short?

 

[Timtofly]

The day/year principle would give us 490 years. Daniel's 70th week gives us one remaining week of years eschatologically called the 7 year Tribulation.

The text surrounding Daniel's 70th week is clearly about events connected with the Messiah., not about Daniel's captivity.

There is no "day" interpretation about the chapter that you can apply your principle to.

You would have to interpret the chapter pointing to Gabriel saying there would be a literal 490 day period. Then your explanation of your interpretation would be that, no, Gabriel was not saying 490 days, but 490 years is the proper understanding. Well you started out with the wrong interpretation to begin with so you could apply your day/year principle.

I never posted there was a direct connection with 70 years to 70 sets of days. I pointed out that God expanded on the 70 from 70 years to 70 sets of years. Not many people interpret 70 weeks as 490 days. It has always been understood as expanding the 70 years into 490 years. Even those in the first century who still recognized the OT prophets knew it had been 500 years from Daniel to the birth of Jesus. They were waiting for the Messiah, because they knew He could come at any time.

The 70 weeks as a whole was the length of time until Messiah the Prince.

Verse 27 is not a set of years. Verse 27 is a set of days. It is the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. Verse 27 is about the Second Coming as Prince to set up an earthly kingdom. It is not a 7 year period. Revelation 10 explains the days of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet does not sound for 7 years.

Now Jesus was born after the 69 weeks as written. Jesus is the 70th week as interpreted, the week not mentioned is Messiah the Prince. Verse 27 is not the 70th week. Yes the Second Coming is prior to this period called the tribulation, but the tribulation is not a 7 year period. The Messiah part was the first half of the 70th week. The Prince part is the second half of the 70th week. When Jesus comes to earth the time Jesus is King sitting in Judgment in Jerusalem will finish the last half of the 70th week. This time is called Jacob's trouble in Daniel. Jesus calls it the worse trouble to ever be experienced in the history of Israel.

Jesus and the angels will be on the earth during this time of trouble. It will not even be 3.5 years. The length will be shortened per Jesus in Matthew 24. But Daniel 9:27 is the end of this time. Like the week of the Cross marked the end of the first 3.5 years as Messiah, the days of the 7th Trumpet will mark the last week of the 3.5 years as Prince.

If you want to demand that all English speaking people must interpret Daniel 9 as a literal 490 day period, I would like to know why we have to do that? Is it just so you can use your day/year principle? Or do you have another explanation? Some English translations do specify these as either days or years. But in doing so, the point remains why? The Hebrew is not definite about days nor years. When interpreting from Hebrew or translating from Hebrew, and knowing history, one today just automatically assumes years, would be the only translational interpretation available. The use of the term "week" is not automatically assumed literal days. The word "week" is the closest understanding of 70 "sevens". The Hebrew word shabua means a set of 7, heptad, or week in English. "Week" being a set of "seven".

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

There is no "day" interpretation about the chapter that you can apply your principle to.

You would have to interpret the chapter pointing to Gabriel saying there would be a literal 490 day period. Then your explanation of your interpretation would be that, no, Gabriel was not saying 490 days, but 490 years is the proper understanding. Well you started out with the wrong interpretation to begin with so you could apply your day/year principle.

I never posted there was a direct connection with 70 years to 70 sets of days. I pointed out that God expanded on the 70 from 70 years to 70 sets of years. Not many people interpret 70 weeks as 490 days. It has always been understood as expanding the 70 years into 490 years. Even those in the first century who still recognized the OT prophets knew it had been 500 years from Daniel to the birth of Jesus. They were waiting for the Messiah, because they knew He could come at any time.

The 70 weeks as a whole was the length of time until Messiah the Prince.

So you say that there is no days because I used the word 'week'.. but then you say that there is days because you say 'sets of days'.

You added the plural weeks onto week - the 70th week.

I am using the words of the text, while you are not.

Verse 27 is not a set of years. Verse 27 is a set of days.

Here you disagree with yourself.

It is the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. Verse 27 is about the Second Coming as Prince to set up an earthly kingdom. It is not a 7 year period. Revelation 10 explains the days of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet does not sound for 7 years.

I agree, the 7th trumpet does not sound for 7 years. But the trumpets sound for the years 1-6. The seventh trumpet sounds on the last year, the seventh year.

The description given in the text of Daniel uses week to provide the 7. So Daniel's 70th week relates to the 7 years of the Tribulation that leads up to the earthly Messianic kingdom.. given in detail by Jesus in Mat, and by John - The book of Revelation.

Now Jesus was born after the 69 weeks as written. Jesus is the 70th week as interpreted, the week not mentioned is Messiah the Prince.

The week of years is about the 70th week wherein is the Second Coming of Jesus, Messiah the Prince.

Verse 27 is not the 70th week.

Yes, it gives the beginning of the 70th week.. the Messianic 7 years that conclude with the Second Coming of Jesus which then goes into the Messianic Millennium.

He (the Prince who is to come vs26) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week.. 7 years.. of Tribulation. Which is how it's possible for you to talk about a 7th trumpet.

Yes the Second Coming is prior to this period called the tribulation, but the tribulation is not a 7 year period.

You said "Verse 27 is about the Second Coming as Prince to set up an earthly kingdom." You also said "Jesus is the 70th week."

The 70th week is the period of time, the 7 year Tribulation wherein Jesus returns to earth in what's referred to as "The Second Coming".

By your focusing only on the 7th trumpet as more significant than the trumpets 1-6 and not realizing that the trumpets are sounded once each year 1-7, then I see why you'd conclude that the 7 year Tribulation is not seven years in length. But that doesn't make your conclusion correct.

The Messiah part was the first half of the 70th week. The Prince part is the second half of the 70th week.

The first half of the 70th week = the 7 year Tribulation, is the focusing on the events involving the lawless son of perdition. The second half of the 70th week = the 7 year Tribulation, is the focusing on the events involving the same man that becomes the demonized antichrist.

Toward the last days of the 7th and last year of the 7 year Tribulation, the Messiah Prince is Jesus who arrives (the Second Coming) to end the antichrist rule and empire. Then set up his Messianic Millennium.

When Jesus comes to earth the time Jesus is King sitting in Judgment in Jerusalem will finish the last half of the 70th week.

Jesus sits on his throne in Jerusalem all during the Messianic Millennium, he does not sit in judgement during the 70th week = the 7 year Tribulation.

This time is called Jacob's trouble in Daniel.

Daniel doesn't use the phrase "Jacob's Trouble", Jeremiah 30:7 does.

Jesus calls it the worse trouble to ever be experienced in the history of Israel.

Jesus and the angels will be on the earth during this time of trouble.

No, Jesus won't. He doesn't return until the last year of the 7 year Tribulation. Many prophetic scholars say that it coincides with the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles when He will be once again among us, sitting on His Messianic Throne, His kingdom never ending.

It will not even be 3.5 years. The length will be shortened per Jesus in Matthew 24.

The length of the Antichrist will be no more than three and a half years. The length of his rule is short lest there'd be nothing for Jesus to return to and no one to rule over.

But Daniel 9:27 is the end of this time. Like the week of the Cross marked the end of the first 3.5 years as Messiah,

When Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, Jesus ministered on the earth from 30AD to 33AD. His titles were Son of Man, and Son of God.. also The Son of David. At this moment I don't recall any others.

After His Second Coming Jesus will reign in the Messianic Millennium - 1k - 1,000 years. Afterwards comes the Great White Throne Judgment, then the New Heavens and the New Earth. The Messianic rulership will continue forever.

the days of the 7th Trumpet will mark the last week of the 3.5 years as Prince.

You allow yourself to use "days" in the same sentence as "week" and "years". So you really have no qualification to correct me concerning any time that I use "days", "weeks" or "years".

Your math is incorrect. A week - 7 days/7years does not equal 3 and 1 half years.

If you want to demand that all English speaking people must interpret Daniel 9 as a literal 490 day period, I would like to know why we have to do that?

I've already given the answers in each of my postings about this subject. I'm not going to go over it again in this reply.

Is it just so you can use your day/year principle?

I only use the "week"/"year" principle as the text does. I only used the word "day" to indicate how many days are in a week in relation to the 70th week of Daniel which prophetically corresponds to the 7 year Tribulation as outlined in the book of Revelation.

Or do you have another explanation?

I leave you to read my responses over again.

Some English translations do specify these as either days or years. But in doing so, the point remains why?

You should ask yourself why you use what you use.

The Hebrew is not definite about days nor years.

Yes it most certainly is. Unless you want to clarify your general statement.

When interpreting from Hebrew or translating from Hebrew, and knowing history, one today just automatically assumes years, would be the only translational interpretation available.

It's clear that your method is assuming against the text.

The use of the term "week" is not automatically assumed literal days. The word "week" is the closest understanding of 70 "sevens". The Hebrew word shabua means a set of 7, heptad, or week in English. "Week" being a set of "seven".

Doesn't the set of 7 not mean a week to you?.. and therefore be speaking prophetically of the future 7 year Tribulation, proved by the 7th trumpet in Revelation. While also acknowledging a future Tribulation.

How hard can it be to put those two together.. Seven.. Year.. Tribulation..? But as evidenced, you go out of your way not to.

 

[crixus]

Come Lord Jesus!

 

[Rapture Bound]

Revelation 13:18, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count[Greek - psephizo] the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

How to pronounce Psēphizō in Biblical Greek - (ψηφίζω / calculate; interpret)

Strong's #5585: psephizo (pronounced psay-fid'-zo)
from 5586; to use pebbles in enumeration, i.e. (generally) to compute:--count.

Here's where it gets really interesting :

Each of the letters of the Greek alphabet is associated with a number :

ψηφίζω [ Psēphizō] =

ψ [psi] = 700

η [eta] = 8

φ [phi] = 500

ί [iota] = 10

ζ [zeta] = 7

ω [omega] = 800

total word value - 700 + 8 + 500 + 10 + 7 + 800 = *2025* ... sure, this may simply be attributed to coincidence ...but, nevertheless, who would have thunk it???