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Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

BABerean2

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But concerning the restoration of Israel, in that same work he spoke of those who “confin’d salvation to their own exclusive pale! Exemplifying thus their ignorance of other unaccomplished mystery.” He then went on to speak of the fact “That blindness, partial only, shall befall benighted Israel! – Till Gentile times draw to their end, and Gentile fullness come.” And then he added that “Then out of Zion will come forth again the Great Deliverer, and will turn again ungodliness from Jacob – written thus and sure as everlasting covenant concerning them, and sealed with that blood which cleanseth from all sin!” Thus, he was clearly teaching that the time when “the Great deliverer” would “turn again ungodliness from Jacob,” was after, not before, “out of Zion will come forth again the Great Deliverer.” That is after, not before the Lord comes in power and glory to punish the wicked. This makes the eventual conversion of “Jacob,” that is, Israel, after, not before, the time when the church will be gathered to Christ. For no interpretation of the timing of the rapture places it after the Lord has come in power and glory to punish the wicked.

It appears that he also ignored the words of Christ below which reveal what happens when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


He also seemed to misunderstand the covenant in Romans 11:27, which is found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

These are the same New Covenant passages that you have been attempting to ignore for some time, now.

.


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Davy

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You are wresting both what I said, and what the scriptures you quoret said.

No, it is YOU... that is wresting against the Scriptures. And it's apparent who you are listening to instead of God in His Word.

The promises to future Israel involve Christ's future Kingdom established ON THE EARTH:

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, 'Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

KJV

Is that ONLY for believers of the seed of Israel? NO!

Why is Apostle Peter quoting from Hosea to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus in the following, since the Book of Hosea was only given to seed of Israel in Hosea's day? :

1 Peter 2:7-10
7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

KJV

How is it Peter applies that to Christ's Church when God gave it through His prophet Hosea to the Israelites under Ephraim? Apostle Paul did the same in Romans 9 with quoting that from Hosea 1 when speaking to Christ's Church among the Gentile Romans.

Orthodox Jews don't know much about New Testament Scripture which contains many quotes directly from Old Testament Scripture connecting God's promises to Israel with Christ's Church.
 
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jgr

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I would take many posts to quote half of what I have.

In the year 1821 he first published ‘The Latter Rain,’ His main object in that paper was to prove from scripture the restoration of Israel, and the consequent glory in the land. His poem entitled, ‘Palingenesia,’ or ‘The World to Come,’ (Part of which is quoted below) appeared in 1824. Thoughts on the ‘Scriptural Expectations of the Church,’ by Basilicus, followed it in 1826.

In 1826, Lewis Way wrote:

“It will be readily admitted that a new aera commenced at the first appearance of Christ, and the promulgation of the Gospel, throughout the Roman Empire, the scriptural designation of which is ‘the fulness of time.’ This expression refers distinctly to the mission and personal office of our Lord himself: and the period which-thus commenced appears to be continued, without any marked interruption, to his second coming; the whole aera being spoken of in this way by himself, and characterized by his Apostles under the general title of ‘the last days,’ in distinction from sundry other times, as the Paradisaical, Patriarchal, or Mosaic dispensationa. But another aera seems to be expressly noticed, and it is specifically entitled ‘The dispensation (or Economy) of the fulness of times:’ under which, scattered parts will be gathered together; disjoined parts united in one great recapitulation of the whole mystery of God: when the detached and manifold gradations of the system hitherto in action will appear to have been working together towards one determinate issue, – the final scheme of man’s redemption in body and soul, as originally conceived and planned in the eternal counsels of Jehovah: when the whole creation, so long groaning and travailing in pain together under the corruption introduced by the Fall, shall be delivered by the power, and subjected to the dominion, of the Son of Man, the second Adam: when the earth, once cursed for the sake of man, shall be blessed again, renewed, and fitter for the habitation of the righteous: when the typical theocracy of the people shall be realized in the kingdom of Israel restored to the risen saints of the Most High: when ‘the Lord shall reign in Mount Zion, and before his ancients gloriously,’ during the time appointed of the Father.”

(“Thoughts on the Scriptural Expectations of the Christian Church,” by Lewis Way, London, 1826, pp. 30-31 in the 1828 ed.)

This, without a doubt, is the very essence of dispensationalism. But many insist that a doctrine is not true Dispensationalism unless it differentiates between Israel and the church. And some insist that it also requires a teaching that some will come to Christ after the end of the church period. So what did Lewis Way have to say about these things? First, as he tended to be rather wordy, it is necessary to make rather long quotations, just to actually see what he was saying.

Looking at what Way said in 1824, he clearly taught that the dead in Christ would arise and “the saints on earth” would be “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet their Lord in air” when Christ would descend “to judge the quick and dead.” He taught this as followed by a thousand year reign on earth by these saints, during which time the wicked would remain dead.

“The day of Christ’s appearance, and his reign
When with archangel voice, and with the trump
Of God, he shall Himself again descend
To judge the quick and dead. The dead in Christ,
Once quickened in their souls by faith in him,
Will then receive their bodies rais’d again,
And glorified, like that which he assum’d
When he appeared to Cleophas, made known
In breaking of the bread, and vanishing!
That white apparel, worn by those two men
Who spake of his return on Olivet,
Commission’d for the purpose; or the two
Transfigur’d with their Lord on tabor’s mount,
Who then appear’d in glory; having on
Not this vile body, seat of sin and shame,
But garments like their Lord, of purest white,
Such as no Fuller on earth could make,
Transparent as the light, – The saints on earth
Rapt in a whirlwind, as Elijah was,
In pledge of their translation; will ascend
Caught up together with them in the clouds
To meet their Lord in air. – The dead in sin
Dead, shall not live; deceased, shall not rise,
Until the thousand years are finished.
Blessed and holy they that shall have part
In that Anastasis! The second death
Hath lost all power over those elect
Made like the angels who maintain'd
Their first estate, and shine as sone of God,
Then manifested heirs by sitting down
As Priests of God, with Christ, upon his throne,
According to his promise unto them
Who overcame by faith. A thousand years,
Thus shall they reign with him, and thus on earth,
For temporal reign in heaven there is none,
And this will have an end; for end will come
When even Christ himself shall render up
This kingdom to the Father, and become
Subject to Him, and God be ALL IN ALL.”

(“Palingensia – the World to Come,” by Lewis Way, London, 1824, pp. 91-93)

But concerning the restoration of Israel, in that same work he spoke of those who “confin’d salvation to their own exclusive pale! Exemplifying thus their ignorance of other unaccomplished mystery.” He then went on to speak of the fact “That blindness, partial only, shall befall benighted Israel! – Till Gentile times draw to their end, and Gentile fullness come.” And then he added that “Then out of Zion will come forth again the Great Deliverer, and will turn again ungodliness from Jacob – written thus and sure as everlasting covenant concerning them, and sealed with that blood which cleanseth from all sin!” Thus, he was clearly teaching that the time when “the Great deliverer” would “turn again ungodliness from Jacob,” was after, not before, “out of Zion will come forth again the Great Deliverer.” That is after, not before the Lord comes in power and glory to punish the wicked. This makes the eventual conversion of “Jacob,” that is, Israel, after, not before, the time when the church will be gathered to Christ. For no interpretation of the timing of the rapture places it after the Lord has come in power and glory to punish the wicked.

The words he used to say this were:

“Great is that mystery, at sundry times
And divers manners manifest. The Word
Made flesh, and in the spirit justified,
Of angels seen, and unto Gentiles preach’d
And by the world believed on, receiv’d
Up into glory! Other part remains
Mysterious to the Gentile world at large
As once their first admission to the faith
And commonwealth of ancient Israel,
Was to the seed of Abrah’m; insomuch
That till the figurative sheet fell down
Full of all creatures – Peter scarce conceiv’d
A Gentile could receive the Holy Ghost!
How many that have stood in Peter’s place
And sat as they presume in Peter’s chair
Have held same partial doctrine! And confin’d
Salvation to their own exclusive pale!
Exemplifying thus their ignorance
Of other unaccomplished mystery
Which yet their true Apostle bids them know,
Lest self conceited wisdom puff them up,
That blindness, partial only, shall befall
Benighted Israel! – Till Gentile times
Draw to their end, and Gentile fullness come.
Then shall their fullness, as their fall before,
As their diminishing became, the riches
Of the Gentiles and the world.
Then out of Zion will come forth again
The Great Deliverer, and will turn again
Ungodliness from Jacob – written thus
And sure as everlasting covenant
Concerning them, and sealed with that blood
Which cleanseth from all sin! mysterious depth
Of wisdom! And of ways unsearchable
Past finding out! For who hath known the mind
Of God, or been his counsellor; save he,
The WONDERFUL, so call’d – the Prince of Peace?
Who saith ‘I will return unro my place
Till they acknowledge their iniquity
And seek me in affliction!’ They abide
As is written of them ‘Many days
Without a king, a prince, a sacrifice,
Without an image, ephod, terraphim.’
Is it not written also ‘Afterward
They shall return and seek the Lord their God
And their king David in their latter days?’”

(“Palingensia – the World to Come,” by Lewis Way, London, 1824, pp. 106-108)

As with Bro. Lowth, neither did Bro. Way know that Abraham is in all of us. But they can both be excused for being unaware of genetic mathematics and science.

Today, there is no excuse for such unawareness.
 
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Davy

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Actually, the scriptures plainly each this, in both the Old testament and the New.

No, the OT teaches of an Israel in the world to come as Christ Jesus' Kingdom with Him as King sitting upon David's throne. How silly it is to try and remove Jesus from that Kingship by trying to separate His future Kingdom apart from His Church!?#@! Real ignorance. How can Jesus be reigning as King over future Israel in the holy land if He is not there, but instead in Heaven with His Church like Dispensationalists try to teach? Ludicrous, and this Scripture reveals such an idea as ludicrous:

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV



Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
KJV


Jesus is returning back to this earth, with all His saints once He gathers them, to Jerusalem, and from there He and His Church will reign over all nations with "a rod of iron" as He was promised by The Father, and as He also promised His elect Church that reigns with Him.

If that is the case, why was a fully developed Dispensationalism (less the pre-tribulation rapture) already being taught in England By Lewis Way more than five years before before Darby ever wrote anything? And why was an end time spiritual restoration of the Jews, along with their end tome return to their homeland, being insisted upon in England by William Lowth, more than a hundred years earlier than that?

So possible influence about the idea of Bible dispensations helped Darby create a pre-trib rapture and thus also a separate Israelite kingdom on earth while the Church is in Heaven? That's really a far, far, reach that doesn't work.
 
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Biblewriter

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It appears that he also ignored the words of Christ below which reveal what happens when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

If you had even bothered to read what he said, you would know that, rather that ignoring that scripture, he based his conclsion on it.
 
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Biblewriter

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As with Bro. Lowth, neither did Bro. Way know that Abraham is in all of us. But they can both be excused for being unaware of genetic mathematics and science.

Today, there is no excuse for such unawareness.

Actually, there is no excuse for taking the word of mere men, even those who call themselves scientists, above the explicitly stated word of God.
 
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jgr

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Actually, there is no excuse for taking the word of mere men, even those who call themselves scientists, above the explicitly stated word of God.

Mere men created science, genetics, and mathematics?

Amazing.

I always thought God did that.

What mathematical sins do all of these mere scientists (Christians undoubtedly among them) commit, in arriving at their godless conclusions?
 
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BABerean2

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If you had even bothered to read what he said, you would know that, rather that ignoring that scripture, he based his conclsion on it.

I stand corrected in the fact that he did not ignore Romans 11:27.

However, like you, he did ignore Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, to make his interpretation work.

The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the same covenant found below, which was fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.
 
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iamlamad

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Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

...

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


You have departed from truth in this post in several directions. Let's begin here:

The "falling away" as you wrote is without much doubt a "departing," not a falling. The first several translations into English translated it so. Paul was writing of the departing of the saints in the rapture. That is what must come first, and that is exactly what Paul shows us in 1 thes. 5. The rapture is the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord, with the 70th week to follow very soon after.

If you look for the rapture in Revelation, you will be disappointed, because John was not shown the rapture. However, He WAS shown the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7. Just to point out, in case you missed it, chapter 7 comes LONG before the 7th vial that ends the 70th week.

Next, in case you missed it: the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly be Paul's rapture, for it gathers in heaven, not on earth.
 
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BABerean2

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If you look for the rapture in Revelation, you will be disappointed, because John was not shown the rapture.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

.
 
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jgr

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The "falling away" as you wrote is without much doubt a "departing," not a falling. The first several translations into English translated it so.

"Apostasia" as "rapture" was unknown in Christian orthodoxy until its sudden appearance in 1895.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.
 
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iamlamad

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"Apostasia" as "rapture" was unknown in Christian orthodoxy until its sudden appearance in 1895.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which had never occurred.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as "rapture", but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.
The big question is, which translation fits the context of the passage best? The theme of the passage is the rapture, not a falling away.

If you examine verse 3b, you will find that in Paul's argument the man of sin "is" revealed - If he "is" revealed, then he "has been" some time before "is." Go ahead: study it in every translation you can find.

We should all agree on this: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the "apostasia" takes place. Do you agree on this point?

Therefore simple logic dictates that whatever Paul meant by "apostasia," in 3b it has been accomplished and is now history - the man of sin is revealed.

Therefore, according to your theory, the falling away must take place and then the man of sin will be revealed - and then they will know the day of the Lord has come.

According to my theory, the rapture must take place and then the man of sin will be revealed- and then they will know the day of the Lord has come.

The truth is, the church has been growing steadily since the beginning. There are more born again people on earth today than any time previous. There is no falling away, nor will there be. But there will be a great and significant catching away. We all know that.

Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is meant by the one restraining. How can we know? Because it is hidden in the word "Apostasia." It is the Holy Spirit working through the church. But when the church is caught up, suddenly the Holy Spirit has no one to work through. And the man of sin will then be revealed.

How would ANYONE know when enough people had fallen away to be called "significant" as in THE apostasia? The answer is, no one would know. But if it is the great catching away, all will know something very significant just happened. Perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 of the population of the world will be gone. Is that significant enough? Those that are left behind and see this will then KNOW a very significant event has happened. then, when they see the man of sin being manifested, they will KNOW the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT. That is Paul's argument.

I am convinced that a departing of the church is what Paul was meaning. It fits the context much better.
 
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iamlamad

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Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

.
Agreed: you found a TINY rapture: two men! Sorry, but your answers are always laughable. It is NOT the church. Did you overlook the great crowd too large to number? Where are they?
 
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BABerean2

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Agreed: you found a TINY rapture: two men! Sorry, but your answers are always laughable. It is NOT the church. Did you overlook the great crowd too large to number? Where are they?

When scripture proves you wrong, you think it is "laughable" ?

The passage does not say they are two "men".

It says below they are two "candlesticks" and two "olive trees".

Do you think these are two men made of wood and metal, or are they a symbol of something else?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?



.
 
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iamlamad

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When scripture proves you wrong, you think it is "laughable" ?

The passage does not say they are two "men".

It says below they are two "candlesticks" and two "olive trees".

Do you think these are two men made of wood and metal, or are they a symbol of something else?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
.
The general consensus of the church world believes they are two men. I agree with them. Neither candlesticks nor trees talk. Men talk. And if you only knew, the church will be long gone by this time.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The general consensus of the church world believes they are two men. I agree with them. Neither candlesticks nor trees talk. Men talk. And if you only knew, the church will be long gone by this time.

You are in error thinking that consensus matters. A consensus is not the arbiter of truth. The Truth is not by consensus or agreement with man's words, it is by consensus and agreement with God's Word.

God did not say the Two Witnesses are literally two men nor the candlesticks or olive trees are men. You need to go by God's definition in His Holy Word

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

IT mentions nothing at all about Elijah, Moses, or any two men you can think of. Can you honestly provide any clear Scripture, anywhere in the WHOLE Bible that would tie in Moses and Elijah into that setting please?

The book of Revelation is written in a style that is meant to be interpreted SPIRITUALLY. God already explained that the candlesticks represents the church.

Revelation 1:20 KJV
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Not 7 physical churches of Asia. God uses the numbers to illustrate some deeper spiritual truths. The number Seven is the number of completeness, and by extension/implication, perfection. So the seven churches "represent" the whole or universal Church of Christ. The number two is the number of an agreement, and by extension/implication, TRUTH. The two witnesses, two candlesticks, two olive tree represent church through men with truthful testimony. Christians! Not two literal men.

The Christians were empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to bring Gospel to prophesy for 1,260 days (symbolically the whole New Testament period) until the building of the Church with the Gentiles is fulfilled. Then the time of the end comes which is when the beast will overcome the testimony of Two Witnesses in the church.

Selah!
 
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iamlamad

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You are in error thinking that consensus matters. A consensus is not the arbiter of truth. The Truth is not by consensus or agreement with man's words, it is by consensus and agreement with God's Word.

God did not say the Two Witnesses are literally two men nor the candlesticks or olive trees are men. You need to go by God's definition in His Holy Word

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

IT mentions nothing at all about Elijah, Moses, or any two men you can think of. Can you honestly provide any clear Scripture, anywhere in the WHOLE Bible that would tie in Moses and Elijah into that setting please?

The book of Revelation is written in a style that is meant to be interpreted SPIRITUALLY. God already explained that the candlesticks represents the church.

Revelation 1:20 KJV
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Not 7 physical churches of Asia. God uses the numbers to illustrate some deeper spiritual truths. The number Seven is the number of completeness, and by extension/implication, perfection. So the seven churches "represent" the whole or universal Church of Christ. The number two is the number of an agreement, and by extension/implication, TRUTH. The two witnesses, two candlesticks, two olive tree represent church through men with truthful testimony. Christians! Not two literal men.

The Christians were empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to bring Gospel to prophesy for 1,260 days (symbolically the whole New Testament period) until the building of the Church with the Gentiles is fulfilled. Then the time of the end comes which is when the beast will overcome the testimony of Two Witnesses in the church.

Selah!
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Have you ever seen or even heard of a Christian shooting fire from their mouth and killing their enemies? In fact, we are to love our enemies during the church age.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

Have you ever seen the church stop rain for 3 1/2 years? Christians usually are praying FOR rain.


6...and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Is there on record any Christian that has turned water to blood? To smite the earth with plagues as often as they wish? Again, we are to love our enemies - not hit them with plagues.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony,

The church has been testifying now for almost 2000 years. These two men will testify for ONLY 1260 days.


7...the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Note: "them:" in your theory, all the living church will die, being put to death by the Beast. Good luck trying to convince the church all will die! Sorry, that would leave Paul's scripture of those caught up null and void.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

In your theory the entire church alive at that time will be put to death in Jerusalem! See how silly this theory gets?


Note, the bible does not say these are NOT two men. Indeed, they are two men.
 
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jgr

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The big question is, which translation fits the context of the passage best? The theme of the passage is the rapture, not a falling away.

If you examine verse 3b, you will find that in Paul's argument the man of sin "is" revealed - If he "is" revealed, then he "has been" some time before "is." Go ahead: study it in every translation you can find.

We should all agree on this: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the "apostasia" takes place. Do you agree on this point?

Therefore simple logic dictates that whatever Paul meant by "apostasia," in 3b it has been accomplished and is now history - the man of sin is revealed.

Therefore, according to your theory, the falling away must take place and then the man of sin will be revealed - and then they will know the day of the Lord has come.

According to my theory, the rapture must take place and then the man of sin will be revealed- and then they will know the day of the Lord has come.

The truth is, the church has been growing steadily since the beginning. There are more born again people on earth today than any time previous. There is no falling away, nor will there be. But there will be a great and significant catching away. We all know that.

Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is meant by the one restraining. How can we know? Because it is hidden in the word "Apostasia." It is the Holy Spirit working through the church. But when the church is caught up, suddenly the Holy Spirit has no one to work through. And the man of sin will then be revealed.

How would ANYONE know when enough people had fallen away to be called "significant" as in THE apostasia? The answer is, no one would know. But if it is the great catching away, all will know something very significant just happened. Perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 of the population of the world will be gone. Is that significant enough? Those that are left behind and see this will then KNOW a very significant event has happened. then, when they see the man of sin being manifested, they will KNOW the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT. That is Paul's argument.

I am convinced that a departing of the church is what Paul was meaning. It fits the context much better.

The, or a, basic premise of your argument is seen in your following claim: "There is no falling away, nor will there be."

But there was.

The 4th century saw the emergence of the beginning of the papal Roman empire, which over the next more than 1,000 years fell away from orthodoxy into apostasy. Over that period, it "made war on the saints", claiming millions of lives. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that the Church was delivered from its spiritual dark ages.

It was this "apostasia" that the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul, and to which he was referring in his message to the Church at Thessalonica.
 
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TribulationSigns

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5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Have you ever seen or even heard of a Christian shooting fire from their mouth and killing their enemies? In fact, we are to love our enemies during the church age.

LOL.

You don't get it. First, you have a carnal mind. Second, you fail to learn how to compare Scripture with Scripture to find what exactly what God talked about. For example:

Revelation 11:5
[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.​

To the natural mind like yourself, they will think that God was talking about a literal fire coming out of man's mouth to destroy people. Or you think that Christians should not do that, only bring love to the world. Really? This is NOT what God meant! You will need to do some homework where you will find the Truth.

Here it is:

Jeremiah 5:14
[14] Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Literally? Of course not! It is God's Word is the fire that comes out of His witnesses' mouth as a judgment against those who do not want to hear the Truth! Spiritually! Selah!

So yes God empowered His Witnesses (Christians) with His Word, which is a sharp Two-edged sword that brings cool water (salvation) or fire (judgment) to hearers as God see fit!

Now, you do the same by comparing Scripture with Scripture to find out God's interpretation for water, blood, and heaven in Revelation 11:6 and go from there. ;)
 
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iamlamad

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The, or a, basic premise of your argument is seen in your following claim: "There is no falling away, nor will there be."

But there was.

The 4th century saw the emergence of the beginning of the papal Roman empire, which over the next more than 1,000 years fell away from orthodoxy into apostasy. Over that period, it "made war on the saints", claiming millions of lives. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that the Church was delivered from its spiritual dark ages.

It was this "apostasia" that the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul, and to which he was referring in his message to the Church at Thessalonica.
Your theory? Not one chance in a million! Paul was writing of END TIMES, just before the man of sin will be revealed. I hope you don't tell me you think his revealing was historic also!

Perhaps, in the beginning, the thousands that came into the Body of Christ in the first 30 years or so of the church. perhaps some of them fell away when persecution reached its peak. However, my guess is, for everyone that "fall away," a greater number came in. My friend, the church is growing, not shrinking!
 
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