GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

[klutedavid]

Please go ahead and share as you are the one who brought it up. Look forward to hearing your take on this verse.

The circumcised are the Jews.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The circumcised are the Jews.

Agreed and the uncircumcised gentiles. The overall topic is righteousness (forgiveness) by faith and not the works of the law to all those who believe God.

 

[klutedavid]

Agreed and the uncircumcised gentiles. The overall topic is righteousness (forgiveness) by faith and not the works of the law to all those who believe God.

Now linking the circumcised and the uncircumcised, how do you read the following verse?

Romans 4:11
So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Now linking the circumcised and the uncircumcised, how do you read the following verse?

Romans 4:11
So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Just as it reads circumcision is a sign of those who have faith. Abraham is the father of all those who have faith in God's Word.

The scripture here links very nicely into this study from God's WORD showing who God's ISRAEL are in the NEW COVENANT click me

Hope this helps..

 

[klutedavid]

Just as it reads circumcision is a sign of those who have faith. Abraham is the father of all those who have faith in God's Word.

The scripture here links very nicely into this study from God's WORD showing who God's ISRAEL are in the NEW COVENANT click me

Hope this helps..

Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised.

Indeed. Circumcision is a sign of faith in God's Word and symbolic of a new heart to follow God.

Foretold in the OLD TESTAMENT….

DEUTERONOMY 10 [16] CIRCUMCISE therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

in the new...

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:19 CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

The old points to the new...

 

[klutedavid]

Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised.

Yes.

Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised.

Abraham was justified by faith before the letter of the law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes.

Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised.

Abraham was justified by faith before the letter of the law.

Circumcision was only a sign of the faith that Abraham had in believing and following God's Word. This included his obedience to God.

GENESIS 26:5 [5], Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abrahal BELIEVED God and followed what God said and it was counted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:19 CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

Hope this helps.

 

[klutedavid]

Circumcision was only a sign of the faith that Abraham had in believing and following God's Word. This included his obedience to God.

GENESIS 26:5 [5], Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abrahal BELIEVED God and followed what God said and it was counted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:19 CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

Hope this helps.

Your missing the point that Paul is making.

Romans 4:10-11
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them.

The whole reason that Paul discusses Abraham is to establish that Abraham was justified, before he performed any works. Abraham was reckoned righteous before he was even circumcised, not after.

The verse you quoted is after Abraham was already reckoned righteous!

GENESIS 26:5 [5], Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Your missing what Paul is teaching in Romans 4.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Your missing the point that Paul is making.

Romans 4:10-11
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them.

The whole reason that Paul discusses Abraham is to establish that Abraham was justified, before he performed any works. Abraham was reckoned righteous before he was even circumcised, not after.

The verse you quoted is after Abraham was already reckoned righteous!

Your missing what Paul is teaching in Romans 4.

Hi David, nice to see you again.

No, I have not missed the point you were making at all. This is the same point I am making. It is those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD that are God's ISRAEL. Abraham is the father of all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. God's ISRAEL as defined in God's WORD are all those in Christ who BELIEVE and FOLLOW him.

Hope this helps..

 

[Pyong Ping]

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Can anyone find the commandment to keep sunday in the place of sabbath in scripture? If it didn't come from God, nor His word, it could only have come from one other source.

 

[sparow]

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Can anyone find the commandment to keep sunday in the place of sabbath in scripture? If it didn't come from God, nor His word, it could only have come from one other source.

Which laws do Christians have to obey? I thought this video was pretty good but then I found fault with it.

I disagree with Steve Myers' interpretation of : Matthew 5:17 (RSV) , the KJV cross references this with Dan 9:24,
17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

While Steve supports the continued keeping of the Law, he still implies Jesus is keeping the Law as a function of righteousness; but that was not what Jesus was talking about. In the OT the words Law and covenant are interchangeable; Jesus began confirming the covenant by fulfilling the prophesies concerning Him found in the Law and the Prophets; Luke describes this better: Luke 24:44 (RSV)
44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled."

Jesus did not keep the Law so others would not have; He did shed His blood so that those who enter into the covenant will not have to shed their blood.


https://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/beyond-today-television-program/which-commandments-do-christians-have-to-obey

 

[BobRyan]

Which laws do Christians have to obey?

God's Law.

The one in the Bible.

And that includes the TEN Commandments according to Eph 6:2, Romans 13, Matthew 19

As even these Christian groups agree --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[BobRyan]

Your missing the point that Paul is making.

Romans 4:10-11
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them.

The whole reason that Paul discusses Abraham is to establish that Abraham was justified, before he performed any works. Abraham was reckoned righteous before he was even circumcised, not after. .

Not true - no lost person was considered righteous.
Not all uncircumcised people are/were lost for that fact alone.

First comes repentance
Conversion
then comes the result - righeousness and salvation.
See Romans 10 for "what results" in righteousness

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not true - no lost person was considered righteous.
Not all uncircumcised people are/were lost for that fact alone.

First comes repentance
Conversion
then comes the result - righeousness and salvation.
See Romans 10 for "what results" in righteousness

Bob, would you say,

Faith in God's WORD leading to conversion (change of mind) followed by repentance (Sorry for sin turning away) and confession and cleansing of sin leading to dependence on God's WORD by Faith?

Some interesting word meanings in the greek.

CONVERTED [στραφῆτε] The word converted has acquired a conventional religious sense which is fundamentally truthful, but the essential quality of which will be more apparent if we render literally, as Rev., except ye turn. The picture is that of turning round in a road and facing the other way. ἐπιστρέφω; epistrephō From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).

REPENTANCE [μετάνοια]; metanoia; From G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); [A pricking of heart; poignant grief or remorse proceeding from a consciousness of guilt; the pain of sorrow or regret for having offended God, and incurred his wrath; the sting of conscience proceeding from a conviction of having violated a moral duty.]; by implication reversal (of [another's] decision): - repentance.

Thanks for sharing and your thoughts.

May God bless you as you continue in his Word.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, would you say,

Faith in God's WORD leading to conversion (change of mind) followed by repentance (Sorry for sin turning away) and confession and cleansing of sin leading to dependence on God's WORD by Faith?

Some interesting word meanings in the greek.

I agree that the sequence is probably something like conviction==>repentance==> conversion+new-Birth

One may at-first repent but then fail to take the next step and accept the Gospel since taking a good look at the Gospel reveals that you are agreeing to die to self ... to crucify the old man of sin and forsaking all to fall at the foot of the cross and accept the "gift" not only of repentance but the new birth and 100% dedication to Christian living.

Romans 10 has it this way

if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.

 

[sparow]

God's Law.

The one in the Bible.

And that includes the TEN Commandments according to Eph 6:2, Romans 13, Matthew 19

As even these Christian groups agree --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Right, but the point I was making, in regard to Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil",

what Jesus was talking about. He was not talking about keeping the Law as every person aught to; instead He was taking about fulfilling prophesy, He was talking about confirming the covenant which most abrogate.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Right, but the point I was making, in regard to Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil",

what Jesus was talking about. He was not talking about keeping the Law as every person aught to; instead He was taking about fulfilling prophesy, He was talking about confirming the covenant which most abrogate.

Brother he was talking about both. Fulfilling or the prophetic scriptures and showing the true meaning and application of God's 10 Commandments as Jesus uses the example of thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not commit adultery.

MATTHEW 5:17-29
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[21], You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not kill; and whoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
[22], But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[23], Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has ought against you;
[24], Leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25], Agree with your adversary quickly, whiles you are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
[26], Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out there, till you have paid the uttermost farthing.
[27], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery:
[28], But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
[29], And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Yep Jesus is certainly referencing the 10 Commandment applying them to the thoughts and feelings. Seems like we need a new heart because ours is broken.

............

NOTE: After stating that none of God's LAW (10 Commandments) have been abolished v17-19, Jesus then goes on to say; v20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus then goes on and amplifies the application of God's LAW to the heart (thoughts and feelings) which is the very root of sin saying that if we lust after women we are committing Adultery and being angry with your brother as murder from the 10 commandments as examples in v17-27.Jesus starts out by saying;

Jesus finishes by saying in v48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Looks like we have a broken heart that has no LOVE that needs fixing and we are all sinners in need of a Saviour.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[BobRyan]

Right, but the point I was making, in regard to Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil",

what Jesus was talking about. He was not talking about keeping the Law as every person aught to; instead He was taking about fulfilling prophesy, He was talking about confirming the covenant which most abrogate.

He goes out of his way in Matthew 5 to focus on specific commandments from "The TEN" and in Matthew 19 He says "if you would enter into eternal life - keep the Commandments". When asked "Which ones?" -- He then quotes "from the TEN". As does Paul in Romans 13.

So then Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.

so that would be "scripture" = "The Law and the Prophets"

Matthew 5
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

The result is as we see it in Ephesians 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: in that still-valid unit of TEN -- written on the heart under the Jeremiah 31 "New Covenant"

 

[sparow]

Brother he was talking about both. Fulfilling or the prophetic scriptures and showing the true meaning and application of God's 10 Commandments as Jesus uses the example of thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not commit adultery.

MATTHEW 5:17-29
[17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
[18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[21], You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not kill; and whoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
[22], But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[23], Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has ought against you;
[24], Leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25], Agree with your adversary quickly, whiles you are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
[26], Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out there, till you have paid the uttermost farthing.
[27], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery:
[28], But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
[29], And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Yep Jesus is certainly referencing the 10 Commandment applying them to the thoughts and feelings. Seems like we need a new heart because ours is broken.

............

NOTE: After stating that none of God's LAW (10 Commandments) have been abolished v17-19, Jesus then goes on to say; v20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus then goes on and amplifies the application of God's LAW to the heart (thoughts and feelings) which is the very root of sin saying that if we lust after women we are committing Adultery and being angry with your brother as murder from the 10 commandments as examples in v17-27.Jesus starts out by saying;

Jesus finishes by saying in v48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Looks like we have a broken heart that has no LOVE that needs fixing and we are all sinners in need of a Saviour.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

I am not sure that we disagree. I have lost track of our conversation, but I was addressing a false doctrine which you appear to not subscribe to. The false doctrine being, "Jesus kept the Law perfectly so we do not have to"; people who do subscribe to that doctrine quote Matt 5:17 as the proof.

Looking at the scriptures 5:48, the word 'perfect' is silly, unless otherwise defined it has an irrational concept; Strong says the word is "complete". The idea is Jesus kept the Law perfectly but you and I are unable to. Jesus askes us to keep the Law as He kept it and to overcome as He overcome and it is not difficult; we have not been asked to do the impossible.

In verse 17, He came to fulfil the Law and the Prophets and in Luke He includes the Psalms; He came to fulfil the whole of the OT; came to honour God's commitments under the covenant. In verse 18, the covenant may not be changed; and then goes on to stress mans obligation (the Commandments) under the covenant. Moses calls the commandments the Law and vice versus; but the commandments are Mans part in the covenant; God's part is to shed His blood when the commandments are broken, among other things.