Cont'd
@aiki
The verse does not speak of revealing, but of drawing. God draws men to salvation. If He does not, as Jesus says, no man can come to him.
Does God draw all men to Him or only those He wishes to draw to Himself?
Yes, it is correct. I have not confused what Paul wrote about concerning the Jews (and you have not shown that I have).
No syntax and I don't really know what we were discussing. Sorry.
If a person drifts from God, there's a good chance they were never saved. But if they were truly saved and have drifted, doing so no more dissolves their membership in God's family than the profligacy of the Prodigal dissolved his membership in his father's family (which it didn't). Our adoption into God's family is entirely contingent upon Christ, not us. God accepts us because of His beloved Son, period. The redemptive work of Jesus at Calvary was perfect, fully satisfying God's justice, and cannot be added to or improved by anything we might or might not do. And since the foundation of our salvation and acceptance by God is the perfect and unchanging Saviour, our acceptance with God never changes.
Very dangerous words!
Our acceptance can definitely be changed.
1. If we return to a life of sin.
Mathew 7:23 Jesus says...
2. If we do not obey Jesus.
Mathew 7:24 Jesus says...
3. If we do not abide in Jesus.
John 15:1-6 Jesus says...
4. If we fall away after time.
Luke 8:13 Jesus says...
Is Matthew 10:33 speaking of people who are saved and then deny their Saviour? I don't think so. It is the lost who have denied and will deny Christ, not the saved.
It is of no consequence to whom Jesus is referring...
Here is the important part:
Mathew 10:33
"Whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven."
If we deny Jesus, He will also deny us WHENEVER the denying happens...before salvation or after salvation...denial of Jesus causes loss of salvation.
It is equivalent to the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.
Mathew 12:13
2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Again, it is the lost who reject, refuse, disavow (all legitimate synonyms for "deny") the Saviour, not those who have been truly born-again. (1 John 2:19)
Paul is writing to Timothy. From chapter 2 verse 1 it's clear that Paul is writing to a saved person, Timothy. In verse 3 Paul tells T to suffer hardships as a good soldier of Jesus. Verse 6 speaks of a hard-working farmer. Verse 9 says Paul is willing to go to prison for the gospel. Verse 10 says Paul is willing to endure all things for the sake of those who have been chosen.
For it is a trustworthy statement...It is a SURE THING:
If we died with Him , we will also live with Him.
If we endure, we shall reign with Him. (IF we ENDURE)
If we deny Him, He will also deny us. (the saved)
And God will always remain FAITHFUL TO HIMSELF and his method of salvation. He will continue to save men as he planned from the beginning ---- even if we fail Him.
As to
1 John 2:19
Correct... The anti-Christs never truly are with Christ.
This isn't what the verses say, however. As Paul wrote to the Philippians, God (not us) begins a work in each of His children and He (not us) will bring that work to completion. (Philippians 1:6) This is repeated by Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The God who wants to sanctify completely His children and make every part of them blameless, Paul writes, is faithful to do so. Our salvation is God's work and our practical sanctification is His work. And this work God has promised to fulfill and complete. He does this whether or not I want Him to. Imagine if God had waited for rebellious sinners, alienated from and at enmity with Him, as Scripture says, to turn of their own accord, and humble themselves, and receive His love, grace and forgiveness. He'd still be waiting! God is always taking the initiative with us, moving us in directions we often don't want to go. I see in this just how little my desire and ability to please God has to do with my relationship with Him. In fact, without God, I would have neither the desire nor the ability to do His will. (Philippians 2:13)
The above is incredibly wrong and shows no understanding of theology.
If the above is correct...please explain what sanctification is.
I believe in free will. The Holy Spirit will be there with us to set us apart to do God's work, however we must be willing to do it.
He will not force us to do it.
If the above is correct, then every time you sin, you can blame God for it since it is HIM who is doing EVERYTHING and you do nothing of your own volition or free will.
2 Timothy 2:21
How did He save us when we were totally separated from Him by our sin, at enmity with Him in our minds and hearts and so completely alienated from Him? Despite our terrible condition, He still manages to save us. You see, we aren't what is important, He is.
Of course.
We are at enmity with Him and must desire to be saved by His sacrifice.
No, we have free will. But He makes us able to exercise that will positively toward the Gospel.
No syntax, but everything we do is helped by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
And we only want heaven if God has persuaded us to want it. Again, God is the crucial factor, not us.
Does God persuade everyone to want heaven, or just a select few and the others end up in hell?
No, it doesn't always mean this. Where did you get this idea from?
Don't know which idea, but I'm sure I'm right.
Well, hang on, now. To whom was Jesus speaking and when? He was speaking to unsaved Jews, primarily. and he said what he did in Matthew 5:13 before he had died on the cross and made it possible for people to be born-again. So, no, he wasn't speaking to "US," that is, saved people when he spoke of the "salt of the earth." There were no saved people at the time.
You DO dislike those hard saying of Christ!
There were no saved people before Jesus died?
So everyone before went to hell?
If Peter had died he would have gone to hell?
What are you talking about???
Jesus was referring to US. WE are the salt of the earth.
Jesus was speaking to His followers, and others, teaching them HOW TO BE SAVED and be a participant in the Kingdom of God.
Everything Jesus said, AT ANY TIME, is meant for US.
If WE lose our saltiness, we are good for nothing and are thrown out and trampled upon.
A hard saying... some disciples left Jesus due to hard saying...but He said them anyway.
John 6:66
But as the parable of the Prodigal makes clear, the Prodigal's sonship was very beneficial to him. He gained an inheritance, and when he had used it all up, he was able to return to the loving, fully-accepting arms of his father.
Yes. One can always return to the Father when he has recognized the error of his ways.
How does verse 14 start? "If any man's (or anyone's)... Verse 11: "No man"... Verse 15: "If any man"... Verse 12: "Now if any man's..." Seems pretty clear to me that Paul was speaking in a very general sense and not specifically about teachers.
Scripture please.
No, it doesn't. I already pointed this out to BobRyan in this thread:
I see the term "dead" used in a number of ways in the New Testament:
It is used figuratively.
Matthew 28:3-4
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
It is used literally.
John 11:14
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."
It is even used in connection with non-biological things.
Hebrews 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
I don't see, then, that there is the reason you suggest for thinking that, when the father in the Prodigal parable says that his son was "dead," that he meant "dead in trespasses and sins."
So do you think the prodigal son was physically dead?
"This son was DEAD and is ALIVE again, he was LOST and now he is FOUND.
This means spiritually dead.
Another hard saying for those who cannot take the bible at its simple wording.
I'm afraid you do - though, you do so one step removed from conversion. You don't say one can be saved by works, but you do say that salvation can only be maintained or preserved by good works. This is, to quote BobRyan, "a distinction without a difference." If your works are necessary to the retention of your salvation, then your salvation is works-dependent. This is works-salvation which Scripture flatly denies.
To analogize: Imagine a judge who casts a serial murderer into prison with the declaration, "I am keeping you in jail for the rest of your life!" The murderer is jailed and is never released. Who has actually kept the murderer in jail? The judge? Or the staff at the prison? The prison staff, of course. Whatever the judge has claimed about his role in the convict's fate, the practical reality is different. You seem to be thinking in a similar way. God says, "I save sinners!" but you think that, really, you are kept in God's kingdom - you are saved - by dint of your own efforts. You give lip service to Ephesians 2:8-9 but think and live practically in contradiction to these verses. At least, that's how it looks to me. Am I mischaracterizing your position?
Yes. I believe we are kept saved by OBEYING GOD. By doing what Jesus told us to do. By behaving how Jesus told us to behave.
I've posted many verses supporting the above.
Could you post some verses showing how we are to do NOTHING after salvation and STILL be saved?
Thanks.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
