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OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    But your thinking there would remove the "Freedom of Choice".

    If that is done then man would not come to God for salvation out of LOVE.

    To be saved, a man must come to God through his love for the Lord Jesus Christ or it means nothing.
     
  2. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Thank you for taking the time to share those verses. Major1. I’ve shared the same. Righteousness has always been by faith, and the “promise” was given to Abraham 450 years before the Law. (Which was never given to save, but to humble us, “stop our mouths” and point us to Christ as a “school master.”)

    The Law (given through Moses) does not “disanul” the promise (given to Abraham) The Gospel.
     
  3. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I always believed Mark 4:31 to be speaking about Jesus.
    He's like a seed that when planted, will bloom to something great.

    You're right about A and E not having to experience evil. There IS a difference between knowing about evil and experiencing it.
    Many may wonder why God even gave them the choice...I believe He gave us free will to accept Him and obey Him. He has free will and we're made in His image.

    Perhaps it was a test. Perhaps He wants only those who truly desire Him to be with Him, we can't really know why He created us and why He made us with free will. There are many theories.

    As to traveling to far places...sure. I think that will be in heaven. Like in Star Trek. I plan to go to Hawaii - always wanted to go there; it's kind of like heaven to me.

    Nice talking to you. Keep your optimistic outlook!
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    From your comments I have seen that you are a solid Bible teaching person with an understanding that is rooted only in what God has done for us and NOT what we can do for ourselves.

    Anytime that I can be of any help to, please ask and of course thank you for the comment and may the Lord bless you !
     
  5. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well sir, just because you think you're right, does not make it so. Are you not convinced you're right? So, then why be on this forum at all?

    If I give you 10 scriptures that show salvation can be lost, how can you be so sure that you're right.

    OF COURSE, we're to believe in Jesus. And since you know Greek so well, I'm sure you know what BELIEVE means. I'm sure you know that it means we are also to OBEY.

    I agree. But here is the problem:
    A new Christian is reading along. What is he to think? That he can do whatever he wants to and still be saved? This is not true, so why make a new Christian believe this? There's a new Christian right here on this thread. Will you take the responsibility for stating incorrect doctrine to which he might adhere? It's a big responsibility --- God will demand much of you:
    James 3:1


    I don't read the bible on my own and make up my own doctrine. I've been taught theology from two different churches, totally different, and they've both taught me the same doctrine regarding salvation. God ALWAYS insisted on obedience and He always will.
    Genesis 2:17 and we all know the outcome of that disobedience.
    Deuteronomy 28:1
    Proverbs 10:17
    1 Kings 2:3
    Joshua 5:6
    Romans 1:5
    Revelation 12:14
    2 Corinthians 12:5

    and so MANY more...
    God demands obedience and He always will.
    No use to tip toe around this.

    Yes context is very important.
    So let's look at verse 21
    Mathew 7:21 JESUS says:
    21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

    Jesus doesn't mention anything about being saved or believing in Him. He speaks about trees producing good fruit, and He speaks about persons doing good deeds. Some will do things in the name of God, like healings, but the lie and do not have God in their heart and mock Him.

    Mathew 7:23 JESUS says

    23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    Again, Jesus did not say that those not entering heaven did not believe in Him, He says that those PRACTICING LAWLESSNESS will not enter into heaven.

    All Jesus did for 3 1/2 years was to teach us how to behave and how to do good. Perhaps this is because it is really important?

    Of course He never knew them --- they did NOT DO THE WILL of the FATHER. He clearly stated that THOSE that do the WILL OF THE FATHER are the ones who will go to heaven...





    Mathew 7:24-27 JESUS says
    24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

    Jesus wants us to ACT on the words He says...this means obeying Him. God has always demanded obedience.


    Then you asked for exegesis of Matthew 7:24...…….
    "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock".

    I do not know why you used this verse to try and prove that salvation can be lost by the individual. There is nothing there to suggest that we can lose something that we did nothing to obtain.

    However I will agree 100% with what said in that He, Jesus Christ is the ROCK of salvation![/QUOTE]
    Explained above.
    BTW, those who HEARD the words of Jesus but DID NOT DO THEM, ended up in a house that fell and great was its fall.
    That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

    Agreed. Jesus died to free us from the grip of satan, no one else.


    Then you asked about John 14:15...………
    "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

    Now when YOU read that verse, can you tell me where it says that "IF I do not obey the commands of God I will lose my salvation"????????

    Is that what it says my dear sister?????? NO! IT DOES NOT![/QUOTE]
    Easy. John 14:15 JESUS says
    "If you love Me, keep My commandments"... opposite:
    If you DO NOT love me do not keep my commandments.
    If we do NOT LOVE Jesus, we must surely not be saved.
    Since, as you stated above, there is salvation in no other name.

    And where does it say that if we do not obey, we lose our salvation?
    Mathew 7:23
    Mathew 7:26
    Revelation 22:12
    James 1:22-23
    Ephesians 2:2
    Colossians 1:10
    Hebrews 10:26-27

    And many more....
    The above verses show how works are necessary and also how we could lose salvation.

    part 1 of 2
     
  6. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Amen. Not sure why you've posted my comments and then said, "NO" as though I disagree with what you've written in your quotation above.
     
  7. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wonder if you realize what a great point you've brought up.
    Adam and Eve SHOULD have been perfect! They had not eaten of the tree yet; they did not have the sin nature yet ...so why did they eat the forbidden fruit? We won't do down that road...it's off topic.

    And yes, God's rule would have applied to any one of us. We would have been the representative for the entire human race.
    And we would have made the same mistake.
    Listening to the evil one is always a mistake...

    God didn't put the tree under lock and key because He gave Adam and Eve FREE WILL to eat of it or not. ANOTHER GREAT POINT!!

    God did put the Tree of Life under lock and key, and it's a good thing He did. Imagine living forever!
     
  8. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    The thought that i must earn my salvation by good works, this distresses me, because im imperfect.
     
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  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    But what does the Word of God say about just that in Ephesians 2:8-9...…………
    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."[/QUOTE]
    I agree with the above of course.
    But, as usual, you've left out
    Ephesians 2:10
    10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


    So, exactly what does it mean that we are to love each other?
    It seems to me that Jesus was more specific in what He wanted of us. But let's just hold hands and sing kumbaya and all will be OK. And if He does come this way, what will He find?


    James is saying TO DO and not only TO HEAR.
    He repeats it twice.
    James 1:22-23
    Theologians have translated the Greek to the English.
    When we have to refer to Greek it usually means one wishes to make unclear the scriptures.

    And once again we encounter the word BELIEVE.
    Would you care to explain to us what believe means in the Greek? No. Well, I can understand --- it's not to your advantage.

    Now, should then we who have accepted Christ as Saviour do good works? YES!!!!!!!
    Good works are the product of salvation in that beause we have loved Christ we now want to do what He would do if He was here with us.
    [/QUOTE]

    Oh my! After all that debating you agree with me.
    So what was all the talk about?
    We are to do good works.
    God demands it.
    And we must do it.
    God does not make requests.



    BELIEVE

    A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.



    See also : pisteuoLuke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.

    pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
    [/QUOTE]

    NO I did not agree with you. You said that works are needed to be and stay saved.

    I said that good works should come AFTER we are saved.

    Your argumentative and confrontational attitude is exactly why I was reluctant to speak with you and that has certainly not changed.

    I have commented and produced works on the Word of God now for many years and I do not have the desire to argue with you or anyone else and I certainly I will not entertain such sarcastic comments as you have used...…...as you said----
    "Would you care to explain to us what believe means in the Greek? No. Well, I can understand --- it's not to your advantage."

    God bless you and please know that I can not respond to anymore to your questions.
     
  10. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You DO NOT earn your salvation by good works.
    You can't do enough good works to save yourself.
    When you come to believe in God, you are immediately justified. Please look up that word.
    This is taught in Ephesians 2:8 and is common knowledge.

    Once you are saved, you are expected to obey God. Would you say that is reasonable? The unsaved do not need to obey God...you can't get anymore lost than lost.

    But if we're friends with God, we should obey Him. It's what God wants.
    This is taught in Ephesians 2:10

    God helps us to obey by having sent the Holy Spirit.
    John 16:7

    And if we sin, God has provided a solution and John tells us:
    1 John 1:9
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said...………
    "Will you take the responsibility for stating incorrect doctrine to which he might adhere? It's a big responsibility --- God will demand much of you".

    ABSOLUTELY! All I know is correct Bible doctrine and not the ones that come from 2 or 3 different churches.

    Please, Please point this person to me as leading people to correct Bible doctrine is what I have spent 50 years doing!!!
     
  12. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with the above of course.
    But, as usual, you've left out
    Ephesians 2:10
    10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


    So, exactly what does it mean that we are to love each other?
    It seems to me that Jesus was more specific in what He wanted of us. But let's just hold hands and sing kumbaya and all will be OK. And if He does come this way, what will He find?


    James is saying TO DO and not only TO HEAR.
    He repeats it twice.
    James 1:22-23
    Theologians have translated the Greek to the English.
    When we have to refer to Greek it usually means one wishes to make unclear the scriptures.

    And once again we encounter the word BELIEVE.
    Would you care to explain to us what believe means in the Greek? No. Well, I can understand --- it's not to your advantage.

    Now, should then we who have accepted Christ as Saviour do good works? YES!!!!!!!
    Good works are the product of salvation in that beause we have loved Christ we now want to do what He would do if He was here with us.
    [/QUOTE]

    Oh my! After all that debating you agree with me.
    So what was all the talk about?
    We are to do good works.
    God demands it.
    And we must do it.
    God does not make requests.



    BELIEVE

    A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.



    See also : pisteuoLuke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.

    pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
    [/QUOTE]

    NO I did not agree with you. You said that works are needed to be and stay saved.

    I said that good works should come AFTER we are saved.

    Your argumentative and confrontational attitude is exactly why I was reluctant to speak with you and that has certainly not changed.

    I have commented and produced works on the Word of God now for many years and I do not have the desire to argue with you or anyone else and I certainly I will not entertain such sarcastic comments as you have used...…...as you said----
    "Would you care to explain to us what believe means in the Greek? No. Well, I can understand --- it's not to your advantage."

    God bless you and please know that I can not respond to anymore to your questions.
    [/QUOTE]
    I don't have any questions my dear sir.
    And I am no more confrontational than you are.
    All I've done is post what JESUS said.
    Posting what BELIEVE means is NOT advantages to you because it means we must obey.

    And what does it mean that we are to obey AFTER we're saved??

    OF COURSE!

    Why would I care to obey God when I'm already lost??

    Of course we're to obey Him AFTER we're saved.

    It's OK if you don't care to write to me.
    If it gets too hot, stay out of the kitchen.
     
  13. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm sorry Major1....
    I don't understand those that speak like you do.
    They say we're only to believe - when you know very well what believe means...
    This sounds like we're not supposed to do anything in our Christian life.

    Then, in the end, you say OH YES, WE ARE TO OBEY.

    So which is it???
    This is very unclear.

    What I'm saying is very clear.

    Also, what do you say about the Kingdom of God?
    Is it here on earth?
    What did Jesus say about it?
    Who can enter?
    How do we stay?

    I'm sure you know that Jesus spoke more about the Kingdom of God than about salvtion.
    4 or 5 verses compared to about 100.
    What do you think of this?

    It has to do with staying saved because we're saved IF we're IN the Kingdom....how to stay in there?
     
  14. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i have read those scriptures you refer to, im still not perfect though.
     
  15. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you think you're expected to be perfect?
     
  16. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, i hope in the Lord though. I actually hope for the whole world, even those who foolishly reject God.
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You have just said what I have been saying so I must ask you why you are so angry and sarcastic towards me???

    What is the point of the anamosity?

    You said...……..
    "You DO NOT earn your salvation by good works."

    CORRECT and that is what I said.

    You said...………
    "You can't do enough good works to save yourself."

    CORRECT and that is what I said.

    You said...………
    "When you come to believe in God, you are immediately justified".

    CORRECT and that is what I said.

    You said...……..
    "Once you are saved, you are expected to obey God."

    Correct and that is what I said.

    But we do not have to obey to be or stay saved. We do not lose our salvation when we sin or disobey God.

    If a person commits or lives in KNOWN SIN and disobedience to God then it can be said that they are not saved at all because the lost do not try to obey at all. Obedience is what we should do but none of us can obey ALL the Commandmensts ALL of the time. We must try but our salvation does NOT DEPEND on keeping the Commands but instead it depends on what Jesus Christ did for us.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Amen !!!!
     
  19. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Our hope is in the Lord. He's our Savior and if we believe in Him we will be with Him one day.

    Some just don't believe in God. They believe in science, the big bang, which is harder to believe than believing in God. I also feel it's very foolish not to believe in God. Who do they think created everything? It just created itself?

    I'm starting to feel like even prayer won't help - although I know it does and we shouldn't go by feelings. So, that's all we could do.

    Jesus came to bring the Kingdom of God on earth. Could you imagine how wonderful it would be if we just, all of us, did what Jesus wanted? If you read the beatitudes it gives a clear picture of what it would be like.

    But, due to the imperfection of man, and the power of the evil one, it can't be like that. We'll never know why.
     
  20. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i can imagine how good things would be.
     
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