OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[EmSw]

The “Trinity” is not three separate God’s.

Please go read the forum rules. Denying the Trinity is a violation of those rules.

As I said, if we don’t agree on that, which is a core doctrine of the faith, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

I never said I deny the Trinity; those are your words.

But don't you believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit? I count three. How many do you count?

 

[BobRyan]

So many "creative" ways to not discuss these verses.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Or, maybe they’ll choose to read the entire chapter, or better the entire letter, and carefully study it for themselves. (If they haven’t already).

Since you claim that is "you" discussing the details of Hebrews 6:4-7 --

We will see how the objective unbiased readers respond to such a detailed review of those verses.

Just wondering why you keep repeating yourself. I’ve already responded to this.

In fact you do not address those verses 6:4-7. In Hebrews 6 you address the verses before the ones we are discussing (6:4-7) then a few verses at the end.

You knew we could all see that -- right?

I guess you once again missed the point. You pulled out verses from the middle of the chapter to “prove” salvation can be lost.

Indeed. And as we all know the writer of Hebrews put no chapter dividers at all in his text.

Quoting the entire book of Hebrews to make a point about vs 4-7 in chapter 6... is pointless as I am sure you would agree.

I merely point to the verses that make my point and that you appear to not want to discuss.

I addressed every single verse in your OP.

By responding to each with "nope... I don't see anything here".

That is not even remotely exegesis of the text to show your point.

I think we both know that.

Let me ask you this: do you believe Jesus actually did enough to save us? Or is something more needed?

Let me ask you this - in addition to needing to avoid the actual verses in Hebrews 6:4-7 do you also need to avoid Romans 10 in asking the question you just asked?

for example Rom 10:9-11
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

And also to ignore Revelation 3?
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne

Hopefully your response is that you don't need to avoid any of those texts and that they do not show what some erroneously call salvation by works.

 

[EmSw]

I haven’t ignored any verses and I certainly don’t dislike any of them. I strive always to understand them in context.

Now, as we differ so vastly on core theology, it is time to move on.

You have ignored verse 21; why do you deny that?

 

[amariselle]

I never said I deny the Trinity; those are your words.

But don't you believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit? I count three. How many do you count?

If you want to learn more about the Trinity, I encourage you to do a study on that.

 

[amariselle]

You have ignored verse 21; why do you deny that?

I haven’t “ignored” anything. Individual verses don’t stand alone, we need context.

I am not going to endlessly repeat myself. This is the last time I will say it.

 

[EmSw]

If you want to learn more about the Trinity, I encourage you to do a study on that.

I have studied that. I don't believe in three Gods.

 

[EmSw]

I haven’t “ignored” anything. Individual verses don’t stand alone, we need context.

I am not going to endlessly repeat myself. This is the last time I will say it.

You have ignored it. Well, give me the context of God not sparing you. He didn't spare Israel; does that mean they are still saved?

 

[BobRyan]

I have studied that. I don't believe in three Gods.

None of us do.

Triune Godhead is not "three gods".

One God Deut 6:4 in three persons Matthew 28:19

 

[St_Worm2]

David, 'coming to Christ' is no different than 'coming to anybody'. No matter if you are called or not, you must be willing to 'come'.

Hi Em, why did you ask me what "come to Me" meant if you understood it then?

That said, that's not what the Bible tells us.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
65 No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.​

And no one is willing to unless the Father has regenerated them, because the spiritually dead .. Ephesians 2:1-3, cannot/will not 'do' anything along these lines unless He has.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 3
9 ... both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Rather, God intervenes while those of us who are His are still dead (spiritually) in our trespasses and sins and "makes us" alive together with Christ (by Grace we are saved .. Ephesians 2:1-5).

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - God saves His people. We don't save ourselves.

Ezekiel 36
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
.​

.

 

[amariselle]

So many "creative" ways to not discuss these verses.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Since you claim that is "you" discussing the details of Hebrews 6:4-7 --

We will see how the objective unbiased readers respond to such a detailed review of those verses.

In fact you do not address those verses 6:4-7. In Hebrews 6 you address the verses before the ones we are discussing (6:4-7) then a few verses at the end.

You knew we could all see that -- right?

Indeed. And as we all know the writer of Hebrews put no chapter dividers at all in his text.

Quoting the entire book of Hebrews to make a point about vs 4-7 in chapter 6... is pointless as I am sure you would agree.

I merely point to the verses that make my point and that you appear to not want to discuss.

The above is all repitition, so I am not going to address it again.

By responding to each with "nope... I don't see anything here".

That is not even remotely exegesis of the text to show your point.

I think we both know that.

Sure, if that is what I actually did. We both know that is not the case.

Let me ask you this - in addition to needing to avoid the actual verses in Hebrews 6:4-7 do you also need to avoid Romans 10 in asking the question you just asked?

for example Rom 10:9-11
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

And also to ignore Revelation 3?
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne

Hopefully your response is that you don't need to avoid any of those texts and that they do not show what some erroneously call salvation by works.

Of course I don’t “avoid” verses.

There is no such thing as salvation by works to begin with. Salvation is a gift.

Want to answer the question?

 

[amariselle]

I have studied that. I don't believe in three Gods.

Good. Neither do I.

 

[amariselle]

You have ignored it. Well, give me the context of God not sparing you. He didn't spare Israel; does that mean they are still saved?

He does in fact “spare” all who are saved, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit. They have passed from death to life and the wrath of God no longer remains upon them.

What exactly do you think is meant by “salvation” and “eternal life”? That God still isn’t going to “spare” us after all? That He didn’t mean what He said? That Jesus somehow failed?

 

[EmSw]

He does in fact “spare” all who are saved, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit. They have passed from death to life and the wrath of God no longer remains upon them.

What exactly do you think is meant by “salvation” and “eternal life”? That God still isn’t going to “spare” us after all? That He didn’t mean what He said? That Jesus somehow failed?

I don't think I would blame it on God. I would blame it on the person.

 

[EmSw]

He does in fact “spare” all who are saved, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit. They have passed from death to life and the wrath of God no longer remains upon them.

Was His chosen people, Israel not saved? How did He not spare them?

 

[amariselle]

I don't think I would blame it on God. I would blame it on the person.

Really? That’s what you got out of those questions?

Quite telling. If you ever want to give an honest answer, maybe then we can have an honest conversation.

 

[amariselle]

Was His chosen people, Israel not saved? How did He not spare them?

The question is why did he not spare them? If you go back and actually read my post, (and more importantly, read the verses in context) you will see why.

And no, it isn’t because they didn’t do enough “good works.”

 

[redleghunter]

Oh, but I'm afraid it does, my fellow brother in Christ. The semi-Pelagian conception of OSAS is false, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints/eternal security is

Yep. QFT.

 

[redleghunter]

It's not a "single verse", but there is certainly this short passage from the Gospel of John to consider:

“ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

Yours and His,
David

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
.​

I see we have some brother and sisters in Christ here of the Arminian or Methodist tradition.

Also know they sing the same hymns we do like Blessed Assurance. As a matter of fact it is hymn #369 in the United Methodist hymnal (see attached)


Here's a good rendition:

 

[EmSw]

Really? That’s what you got out of those questions?

Quite telling. If you ever want to give an honest answer, maybe then we can have an honest conversation.

Here's what you said - 'What exactly do you think is meant by “salvation” and “eternal life”? That God still isn’t going to “spare” us after all? That He didn’t mean what He said? That Jesus somehow failed?'

Why did you bring up that 'Jesus somehow failed'? I have no doubt, it's not Jesus who failed, but rather, people who fail. If they lose salvation, it's not Jesus' fault. If they aren't spared, Jesus did not fail. He gave many, many words on eternal life, not just a few that are thrown around in favor of eternal security.

The main one I see that people have a hard time with is, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. I have heard every excuse under the sun, as to what this means and why it's not for us today.

If some of these eternal security people don't make it to Heaven, they can't blame Jesus, for He gave us the truth to live by. They only have themselves to blame, not that Jesus failed.

 

[EmSw]

The question is why did he not spare them? If you go back and actually read my post, (and more importantly, read the verses in context) you will see why.

And no, it isn’t because they didn’t do enough “good works.”

Hmmm, did it have to do with not believing anymore? What's the difference between Israel's unbelief and Christian's unbelief today?

Romans 11
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

A lot here, don't you agree? Not only were they not spared, that is, cut off, but it also says God is able to graft them in again, if they do not abide in unbelief.

Isn't this, saved, unsaved, and saved again?