Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[EmSw]

What if somebody puts a dent in a vehicle, will the dent go away after awhile?
Last year I was in a spot to small for my truck and in process of getting out I put a dent in my passenger door.
I haven't done that since, but that dent is still there. How long will it take for that dent to go away?

As soon as you get rid of the truck, it will go away.

I don't know if comparing eternal life to a dent is good.

You do realize that word translated "obey" is the Greek word pisteuō, which means to have faith.
If you would have read my question we would not have this confusion.
What happens if we don't obey Jesus' command to love?
Also in John 3:36 do you see that phrase "wrath of God abides"?
Do you know what it means to abide? It means to remain, iow if you don't believe the wrath of God never left.
It also doesn't mean the wrath of God returns.

So, are you saying 'having faith' is the same as 'obeying'? It's an action word, correct?

Did you know Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him?

 

[Doug Melven]

Nope! You have failed to give us ONE OT passage...ZERO!!! I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what the OT is. I've told you before, I DON'T WANT ANY REFERENCES to the OT. I want actual OT passages. You know what? I will give you one which shows how they receive life.

Psalms 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
103:9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

Are you saying Abraham wasn't saved before Genesis 15:6? Abraham didn't have life before Genesis 15:6? I guess people will believe whatever they desire, as long as it agrees with their beliefs.

How else would he have gotten saved except by believing?

Don't you just love those passages from Proverbs? I do. Do you attend to His words and incline your ear to His sayings to find life?

Absolutely I do.
Would it surprise you to know I have not been sick in years.
The only thing close to medical attention I have needed in the last 5 years is to go to the dentist to have my teeth cleaned.
I don't get sick. I don't get headaches. And I rarely have sleepless nights.

Here, I'll give you one. You put a down payment on a house and make the first month's mortgage payment. This is the action. What is the result? You get to live in your house. Now suppose you quit making your mortgage payments (quit the action). Do you think you can continually live in the house (the result of the action) on just that first month's payment?

God has given us the Holy Spirit as an earnest on eternal life.
Do you think it possible for God to default on payment?
I don't think it's possible. God's credit rating is way better than AAAAAAAA.

 

[Doug Melven]

As soon as you get rid of the truck, it will go away.

Unless the new owner fixes the dent, it will still be there.

I don't know if comparing eternal life to a dent is good.

Who's comparing a dent to eternal life?
We are comparing a onetime action that has effects that last.
Like Jesus said, believe, receive eternal life.
If you keep believing to receive something after you have received it, do you believe you have received?

So, are you saying 'having faith' is the same as 'obeying'? It's an action word, correct?

Obedience is believing, believing is obedience.
But this does not pertain to the question I asked.
What happens if you don't obey Jesus' command to love? Do you lose your salvation?

Did you know Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him?

Oh, yes. He is the Author and Finisher.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If you know the OT so well, can you tell me how David got away with adultery and murder?

 

[GodsGrace101]

There have been many people shot in the heart and lived to tell about it. And yes, the result of that action does go away. You have to get better scenarios; you've failed in the ones you have presented so far.

Here, I'll give you one. You put a down payment on a house and make the first month's mortgage payment. This is the action. What is the result? You get to live in your house. Now suppose you quit making your mortgage payments (quit the action). Do you think you can continually live in the house (the result of the action) on just that first month's payment?

Very good analogy.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Unless the new owner fixes the dent, it will still be there.

Who's comparing a dent to eternal life?
We are comparing a onetime action that has effects that last.
Like Jesus said, believe, receive eternal life.
If you keep believing to receive something after you have received it, do you believe you have received?

Obedience is believing, believing is obedience.
But this does not pertain to the question I asked.
What happens if you don't obey Jesus' command to love? Do you lose your salvation?
Oh, yes. He is the Author and Finisher.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If you know the OT so well, can you tell me how David got away with adultery and murder?

Two comments...

The Holy Spirit is a seal, or earnest or down payment for eternal life. We receive eternal life when we die and not before. IF the conditions have been satisfied.
John 3:36

Regarding Jesus' command to love...
Mathew 5:16
John 13:35

 

[Doug Melven]

The Holy Spirit is a seal, or earnest or down payment for eternal life. We receive eternal life when we die and not before. IF the conditions have been satisfied.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you don't have eternal life now, you will never have eternal life.

Regarding Jesus' command to love...
Mathew 5:16
John 13:35

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

These are 2 good verses, how do they answer my question?
What happens if we don't obey Jesus' command to love?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Two comments...

The Holy Spirit is a seal, or earnest or down payment for eternal life. We receive eternal life when we die and not before. IF the conditions have been satisfied.
John 3:36

Regarding Jesus' command to love...]
Mathew 5:16
John 13:35

Also Ephesians 4:30

Luke 21:28
Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend! and lift-up! the heads of ye,
because is nigh/eggizei <1448> (5719) the redemtion/apolutrwsiV <629> of ye.

Ephes 4:30
and no be ye sorrowing the spirit, the holy of the God in which ye were sealed into a day of redemption/apolutrwsewV <629>.
Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption/apolutrwsin<639 through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Ye are bought G59 with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

1 Corin 7:23
Ye are bought G59 with a price; be not ye the servants of men. [Reve 5]
Revelation 5:9
and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast slaughtered,
and didst purchase/hgorasaV <59> Us to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation

 

[EmSw]

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you don't have eternal life now, you will never have eternal life.

Luke 18:30
who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

When is the 'age to come'?

 

[EmSw]

What happens if we don't obey Jesus' command to love?

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Well, you haven't passed from death to life for starters; you still abide in death.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Now John says this is how a child of the devil is manifested - he does not practice righteousness, AND he does not LOVE his brother. Do you now see what happens?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I really wonder how someone can say this and not realize that since "abiding in Him" is a command to obey, then if "abiding in Him" means having eternal life, then you are in charge of your own salvation. NOT.


Try me. Give me just one verses that flat out states in plain language (no metaphors or figures of speech) that we can lose salvation or that a believer can perish.

no, the salvation is in Him not in our belief in him. By us believing and continuing in that faith he abides in us also and we continue in the Son and in the father.

We are not in Charge of Jesus (who is eternal life). But we have a choice to come unto him and believe and abide, or to withdraw from him and deny him and abide not, we are not robots

 

[LoveofTruth]

ITry me. Give me just one verses that flat out states in plain language (no metaphors or figures of speech) that we can lose salvation or that a believer can perish.

I gave many but you don't see them

here is a section that uses the word "perished" in context of believing and falling away. I added a few more verses to show the context

"4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day....11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."(Jude 1:4-6,11 KJV)

also

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,..."

Showing that a person has to continue in the faith grounded and settled or else they have no root and can Fall away ( Luke 8), and they can be moved away from the "hope" of the gospel.Christ in you is the HOPE. So to be moved away from the hope of the gospel is to be moved away from salvation.

1 Thessalonians 3:8
For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.''

If you don't stand fast do you live?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There's always going to be someone who agrees with the carnal interpretation.

It's a good thing our brother Paul had faith with those that were carnal........

1 Corin 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Notice this covenantle parable in Luke 16 between those of the NC of Christ and Spirit, and those of the OC of Moses and flesh. Oh the wonders of His Word......

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:
26 " 'And besides all this, between us/Abraham, Jesus and Spirit and ye/Moses, Law, Flesh there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "

30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

 

[zoidar]

I asked:
"So, salvation is like a yo-yo? Saved and then lost, saved and then lost?"

My question was about losing salvation over and over, like a yo-yo goes up and down over and over.

And, if can be regained, on what basis, since the initial basis was by grace (Eph 2:8).

This didn't answer my question.

I think I did answer your question. My answer was: No, it's not like a yo-yo!

You get it right with God again by repentance and grace.

 

[zoidar]

What if somebody puts a dent in a vehicle, will the dent go away after awhile?
Last year I was in a spot to small for my truck and in process of getting out I put a dent in my passenger door.
I haven't done that since, but that dent is still there. How long will it take for that dent to go away?

You do realize that word translated "obey" is the Greek word pisteuō, which means to have faith.
If you would have read my question we would not have this confusion.
What happens if we don't obey Jesus' command to love?
Also in John 3:36 do you see that phrase "wrath of God abides"?
Do you know what it means to abide? It means to remain, iow if you don't believe the wrath of God never left.
It also doesn't mean the wrath of God returns.

Actually the word in John 3:36 that is translated "not obey" is not pisteuō, but apeithéō which means:

"believe not, do not obey, obey not, unbelieving, disbelieved, obey, disobedient" (Search for 'obey' - Bible Lexicon: FREE Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicons)

 

[GodsGrace101]

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you don't have eternal life now, you will never have eternal life.

John 5:11 THE LIFE IS IN THE SON
Romans 8:9 IF ANY MAN HATH NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST,HE IS NONE OF HIS.

I think you and I are in agreement DM.
As long as we have, abide in, believe, follow, THE SON, we have eternal life.

However, the eternal life goes into effect at our death. If we had it now, we'd never die.
Revelation 3:8
Mathew 7:14 The way to eternal life is A PATH. A WALK.

Right now we have an ABUNDANT LIFE. Which is what YOU always talk about.
John 10:10

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

These are 2 good verses, how do they answer my question?
What happens if we don't obey Jesus' command to love?

We are required to love men.
We are required to forgive.
I posted what Jesus said we must do.
Sometimes, maybe, we cannot --- but try we must.
How do you not love man when you understand that it is satan that has power in their lives? We're to pray for them, not hate them.

 

[zoidar]

We are required to love men.
We are required to forgive.
I posted what Jesus said we must do.
Sometimes, maybe, we cannot --- but try we must.
How do you not love man when you understand that it is satan that has power in their lives? We're to pray for them, not hate them.

Just adding to what you said. To love your enemies doesn't mean you have to have warm feelings, it's about treating them with love.

Great point: "How do you not love man when you understand that it is satan that has power in their lives?"

 

[zoidar]

I think I did answer your question. My answer was: No, it's not like a yo-yo!

You get it right with God again by repentance and grace.

I would say that repentance comes first, then the grace of the Holy Spirit comes into our life, and we are saved. I'm not denying that God leads us to repentance, but the grace of God saves us after repentance.

 

[Bible2+]

bcbsr said in post #1703:

On the other hand it also says, "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

Amen.

But God does not justify unrepentant wickedness (Hebrews 10:26-29). Also, while initial justification/salvation is apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9), ultimate justification/salvation does require works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

*******

bcbsr said in post #1704:

Not possible, never happens. If an alleged Christian apostasises it just means they were never saved to begin with. So says JOhn in 1JOhn 2:19

Note that 1 John 2:19 does not require that apostate Christians were never real Christians, but can mean that apostate Christians were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real Christians, who have their names written in the Book of Life, can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the Church because of its continued, and correct, insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).

bcbsr said in post #1704:

Salvation not conditioned upon behavior . . .

Note that ultimate salvation is conditional upon obedience to Jesus (Hebrews 5:9).

bcbsr said in post #1704:

Behavior reveals ones salvation status . . .

Not necessarily (2 Peter 2:20-22).

*******

bcbsr said in post #1705:

People are justified by faith . . .

That's right, initially, if you mean by faith alone (Romans 4:3). But ultimately people are justified by faith and works (James 2:24).

bcbsr said in post #1705:

. . . not by their involvement in a religious ceremony, for example.

John 6:53-57 shows that all Christians, for their ultimate salvation, must eat the bread of Communion (Matthew 26:26), and drink the wine of Communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:27-30), in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

In 1 Corinthians 11:29, "discerning the Lord's body" means that when Christians partake of Communion (1 Corinthians 11:23-29), they must discern that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ (John 6:53-56) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63), or they may suffer the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30).

*******

bcbsr said in post #1706:

A person cannot speak about being "saved" from a future event - saved from hell fire - if in fact there is no guarantee they will not lose their salvation.

They can.

For what Christians are saved from, whether initially or ultimately, is eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 25:41,46). Initial salvation does save Christians from hell, initially. For an initially-saved Christian will end up in hell ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will subsequent to his initial salvation in such a way that he ultimately loses his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

bcbsr said in post #1706:

So the salvation by works Christians cannot logically say that they are saved . . .

They can.

For initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Bible2+]

FreeGrace2 said in post #1711:

The issue of this verse [John 10:28] is that all who receive the gift of eternal life shall never perish.

With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1711:

It seems you don't really understand what is meant by "having eternal life".

It can be lost (Matthew 24:48-51).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1712:

Rom 3:9 and 23 both say everyone is sinful. OK, so much for "continuance in well doing" [Rom. 2:6-8].

On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1712:

The previous verse [Luke 8:12] shows that the result of believing (without any time limit) is salvation . . .

But ultimate salvation requires belief unto the end (Hebrews 3:14, Hebrews 6:4-8).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1722:

The FACT that the Bible commands that we keep His commandments, shows it is NOT a factor in getting saved.

Obedience to God is required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21).

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #1728:

[Isa.] 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Only so long as we don't commit unrepentant sin (Revelation 3:19).

Doug Melven said in post #1728:

So what do you tell these people that fear they have lost there salvation?

It is only if Christians continue in a sin without repentance until death (1 John 5:16b), or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1762:

God has given us the Holy Spirit as an earnest on eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1763:

If you know the OT so well, can you tell me how David got away with adultery and murder?

By repenting (Psalms 51; 1 John 1:9). But he still lost a child due to his sin (2 Samuel 12:14). Compare Revelation 2:23.

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1766:

If you don't have eternal life now, you will never have eternal life.

Not true. For some people will be saved in the future (e.g. Romans 11:23-32).